Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[Acorn]

If you want to think of it as a true killing weapon, the bayonet has been obsolete since Gustavus Adolphus (17th C). In the Napoleonic Wars the Brits used to emphasize that "Frenchies don't like cold steel up 'em." It was, and is, true. However, NOBODY likes "cold steel up 'em," and since the intro of the bayonet very few people have been killed by them in battle (lots in various atrocities though). Garvin alluded to the psychologcal effect, which is powerful.

Anyway, to save myself some typing, I'd recommend Grossman's On Killing for those who haven't read it, and a re-read for those who have read it some time ago.

Acorn

 

[vonGarvin]

OK: here's the point (pun intended): Bayonet is still useful, still part of the equipment issued with the C7A2, and still required.  Have we done bayonet fighting in combat since Korea? No.  Neither have we been in many firefights in which 10 loaded magazines were required (though that's issued in Afghanistan: light AND mech infantry).  Heck, why bring rifles at all when, Medak aside, Canadians haven't really been involved in Combat since Korea.  (Yes, Op Apollo in Afghanistan was a combat op, so to speak, but other than the snipers, and maybe JTF, what combat did we actually see?). 

And, FYI,  yes, I do have operational experience, in case anyone was wondering, and no, Korea is NOT involved

 

[KevinB]

FWIW this topic also came up on Lightfighter

Chuck (basicload) offers his comments - lets just say Chuck is 'experienced'  

quote:
Originally posted by BDUser:
IIRC there was a bunch of Scots that used bayonets pretty effectively against al-Sadr's crew last year.


yeah and Marines and Soldiers have payed for yards of land in blood in the past too, that does not make it the preferred technique.

If a weapon is set up to take a bayonet, its is most likely not optimally set up for urban combat.

If the Scot's had the ammo to shoot the bad guys at close distance before they had to stab them, then why not do that? I'm not saying that the "bayonet charge" was wrong.... it broke the enemy's will to fight.

I'm saying that for the weight of a bayonet I can carry two 17rd Glock mags or three 10 rd .45 mags. My pistol exists to get me to my next rifle.... period. Hell, now that I think about it I think you could carry two single hit 7.62X39 AP side impact plates for the weight of the M-9 bayonet. Lets see.... rifle protective inserts or a big fucking knife..... hhmmmm

I have 30 plus rounds to kill from 25-30 meters all the way to point blank..... if at any point I wack someone that has a rifle.... ANY RIFLE! I'm jacking their shit and running it dry or until I get an even better rifle...... The youngest pre-teen male that has ever Played "duke-nuk'em", Doom, metal gear, etc. knows that its all about trading up on your fire power.

Based upon this WELL known video game/close combat FACT...... which do you think will get you to a better weapon faster? I knife on the end of your rifle, or a hand gun in your hand?

If we are talking about a soldier that has no side arm, I still stand by the fact that an M-4 with gadgets on it and attached to a soldier by sling of snap link is not a good fighting platform. In that case I would carry a light weight fighting tomahawk.

Thats just MHO..... I don't even carry a fixed blade kinfe currently.... its ALL about the weight

Member of the Militant Wing of the FDNY since 9/11/2001

 

[Britney Spears]

If I were issued a lightweight fighting tomahawk I'd carry it.

But only if it was LIGHTweight....

 

[KevinB]

Yeah I figured someone who make a dig about that one...  :

However he (bl) says he was not joking.  I guess if you think of items to attack someone with a Tomahawk seems a bit more effective to quickly clobber someone than a knife.

Anyway anyone else questioning it keep in mind BL was in the Ranger Regt in Somalia (think BHD), OEF, OIF.  He's killed more people than cancer and is now in a Ft Bragg based unit that is not Ranger but often works with them ...

 

[Infanteer]

Anyway anyone else questioning it keep in mind BL was in the Ranger Regt in Somalia (think BHD), OEF, OIF.   He's killed more people than cancer and is now in a Ft Bragg based unit that is not Ranger but often works with them ...

Wow, your CV doesn't get much more authoritative than that....

 

[a_majoor]

All we need is a person here who has "killed more than the Spanish flu" and then the oneupmanship game is won 

Various people are circling around this from the "operational kit" perspective or the "psychological" aspect. Both attitudes are quite hard, you either believe a bayonet is an effective piece of kit, or not. For the "not" side, they either want to go with a sidearm (few and far between in this man's army) or substitute a "better" weapon and more ammunition. As a BTW, close combat generally devolves into a melee involving throwing your helmet, hacking away with an entrenching tool or 3' picket, or if you are really prepared, you already have some sort of club or improvised mace handy (see various WWI books or historical displays). A sawed off 12 gage would be quite handy in this situation as well (especially if it has a hardwood stock).

In the absence of compelling reasons to believe otherwise, I will be content to carry a bayonet, since it weighs less than a crystal ball, and I never know if I will suddenly have to deal with prisoners or a hostile crowd in a "Full Spectrum Ops" setting. Since I am not normally issued a sidearm, I will also keep it in mind should I get into a really desperate situation. That being said, I also expect to be able to take steps to preemptively prevent having to get it on with a bayonet. I like to keep my mayhem 1-300m away, thank you.

 

[KevinB]

But Sarge my bayonet won't fit.   ;D

Relax its a personal gun.   Lower did not start life as Diemaco and it does not go select fire.

 

[GO!!!]

Methinks someone has gone a little overboard on the pers. kit... NICE.

If the queen did'nt give it to me, I dont need it, except for
My danners
gloves
underwear
iron sight for c7a2 rail
surefire
e-trex
headlamp
maglite
day bag
kidney pad
snugpak shirt
raincoat
stealth suit
insoles
pocket rocket stove....

Nice webbing tho - wheres it from?

 

[KevinB]

Paraclete RAV - stupid money - but I bought it while we where in Afghan, the day after I realised I could not drive and wear the gear I had.  Eagle has the CIRAS and SOE/Lightfighter have the Warhammer -similar and improved on designs - and CHEAPER.  Two of our guys (one lurks but I dont think he posts here) bought the Warhammer - and it seems a lot more sleek.

I am a dirty kit slut - I have like 8 different Surefire Flashlights - not even sure why.  The DHTC guys have RAV's in OD (I'm much cooler  ;D in Coyote) - one of my friends there stripped a lot of crap off my kit - and I just got admonished that I put a lot of it back on (still no bayonet  ) and delete a whole bunch of crap.

Thread Hi-Jack
- Also I am moving so I have to inventory a whole shit load of kit I have been hoarding over the years and sell or give it away...

 

[Michael OLeary]

Various people are circling around this from the "operational kit" perspective or the "psychological" aspect. Both attitudes are quite hard, you either believe a bayonet is an effective piece of kit, or not.

I'd rather have a good combat/utility knife that has the fittings to be used a bayonet if needed, rather than a merely adequate bayonet that serves little other purpose.

 

[paracowboy]

paracowboy has the new bayonet. He likes it! He likes it a lot. He now needs to find things to stick with it. He is also enjoying referring to himself in the third person, and may continue to do so all day.

 

[Garry]

Interesting thread- just found it, read the whole dang thing........

For the guys who were debating the pipers use: Militia Ex, summer 77, Nova Scotia. I was Armoured Recce, and we (among others- I was a brand new Tpr...LOL, we could have been anywhere, I wasn't sure)) had pinned down a Highland infantry unit in a copse of woods. They couldn't go back (ocean iirc) and we had a couple of long fields, with several fences, between us and them. We had dismounted the entire Sqn's complement of GPMG's, and were calling in Arty fire on the pinned down infanteers. It wasn't long before mortars laid down a smoke screen between us and them. My Sgt hollered out to "get ready, here they come".....from somewhere behind the smoke, I heard the pipes start up, then slowly a single piper appeared out of the smoke. He was followed by the entire Bn, bayonets fixed, line extended, walking towards our fixed guns. ( I still get goose pimples remembering it) Scared the beejezus out of me, and I just lay there watching until my Sgt kicked me and got me firing...I was the first to fire too!! Couple of points- first off, this wasn't real, it was pretend. I wasn't much of a soldier- brand new, basically eager and fit but untrained, however I froze- then I "killed" a heck of a lot of guys with fixed bayonets. I also got a heck of a lesson from my Sgt, when I questioned the enemy's tactics: "Tpr, you may not be able to choose when you're going to die, but you can sure as he** choose how"..... (always liked that one)

Re: "everyone hollers when getting stabbed". Respectfully disagree.

Re: issue vs personal kit. Kit lists are generally made by old soldiers to make sure that new soldiers have what they need to accomplish the task. These kit lists are modified by the old soldiers as the task +/or AO changes. They are also modified by the Commander to make sure that the kit that she feels she needs to accomplish the mission will be there. We have to have some faith in our Leaders- and they have to have some faith in us. Generally speaking, I always performed a kit check- and I cut the "old" guys a lot more slack than I'd cut the "new" guys....but "I" made sure that what "I" felt "I" needed to accomplish the task was there. Period.

Re: switching from a rifle to a pistol while in close contact. Friends of mine who carry daily told me about   the "30 foot" drill. They said that an agressor who gets within 30 feet of you will be able to close with you before you can get your sidearm out and up. I didn't believe them, so I tried the drill. You may want to as well.....

Re: usefulness of a bayonet. In all honesty, I have never participated in a real life, no fooling bayonet charge. While I certainly have "thoughts" about the efficacy of bayonets (I "think" there are times when they'd be very effective) I have NO operational experience with bayonets. ....and near as I can tell, the "only" BTDT person's argument was copied....., he was quoted......Hmmmm, eh?

In all honesty, when arguing about most anything, I think it may be worthwhile to ensure that what you "think" isn't presented as "fact".

Cheers-Garry

 

[1feral1]

The C-2000 bayonet can be seen by doing a search for 'bayonet can-2000'. What will come up is the black generic Eickhorn. The CF version is in OD, serialised, and does not have the screw driver at the base of the scabbard. This was removed from the design so it does not cut anyone in the chin when worn inverted on the TAC vests, etc.

Eickhorn has been sold to a UK based company, and the bayonets for the CF contract will be made in the UK.

Diemaco sent me some pics, but they are too large to post on here, and if anyone wants a pic, email me, and I'll fwd it to ya's, and maybe someone can figure out how to shrink it down so it can be posted here.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[scm77]

Wes if you go to http://www.imageshack.us you can upload the pictures to that site since they're too big to upload to this site.

Incase you aren't familiar with imageshack here's how to do it.

1. Go to the site http://www.imageshack.us
2. Click on "browse"
3. Select the image you want to upload from your computer.
4. Click on "host it!"
5. A page will then come up that has a series of lines of text in boxes.  There will be a box (should be the second one down) that says "Thumbnail for forums (1)"  Copy all of the text that is in that box and paste it into where you type your replies for this forum.
6. Press the "back" button and repeat the process for any other images you want to use.
7. When you've got all the codes for your different pictures copied and pasted, and press post your post will have a thumbnail of the picture that can be clicked on to view full size.

It will look like this...

 

[Kal]

Re: switching from a rifle to a pistol while in close contact. Friends of mine who carry daily told me about   the "30 foot" drill. They said that an agressor who gets within 30 feet of you will be able to close with you before you can get your sidearm out and up. I didn't believe them, so I tried the drill. You may want to as well.....

Then how does one account for the success in utilizing this transition by the number of premier SWAT and SF units?   I believe for the instances that the target does close the gap, extreme CQB shooting tactics should be employed.   To "...get your sidearm out and up..." isn't necessarily needed.   What I mean is, if the target is within a foot or two or is already on me, simply drawing and shooting from the hip will be combat effective.   If the baddy already has a hold and/or is attacking, I will not have the room to draw, bring the weapon up and push it out to shoot, but I may have enough room to draw and shoot from the hip.   Also, I believe the some hand to hand skills are required when such instances present themselves.   I do not want to build up so much muscle memory that I only allow myself to shoot with my arms fully extended.   Since I've already decided to use potentially leathal force in employing my pistol, once the aggressor is in range to physically touch me, I may slam my fingers into their eyes draw and hip shoot giving them a double or triple tap of 230 gr. .45 into their hip either dropping them with a shattered hip or spine or gaining enough room to shoot more accurately.  

Edit:  Still believe in the combat knife and tactics, though.

 

[Garry]

Kal,

I "think" the operative word in your post was "I believe".

Have you tried the drill?

We can talk until we're blue in the face- doesn't mean a thing. Go try something, then come back and tell the rest of us what you've learned- then we all learn.

Not to be confrontational, but it took me awhile to realise that there really are a lot of people out there spewing crap. Not on purpose, but simply because they "believe it's true".....a "Bud told them"....."everyone knows"...."it sounds about right".....

In this instance, people were discussing what the best option was, in close contact, for staying alive with a primary weapon failure. Some said bayonet, others said drawing their sidearm. I merely stated the existence of a drill that addressed this problem. Please note that I didn't read about it on the net, nor was I told about it- I tried it myself.

Give it a shot, see what you think, then make your own decision about the efficacy of your plans. The drill is- stand comfortably with your sidearm in a "normal" carry position (some type of holster). Now would be a good time to ensure that it is unloaded. Have a Bud stand about 30 feet away. Without warning, have him run at you as hard as he can, and attempt to cut you (pretend knife is a good idea) or inflict some other blow on you. You try and draw your weapon and (pretend) to shoot him before he lands a blow.

Not that it matters, but I was unable to draw my sidearm before I was slashed. I found that I was better off responding to the threat in a different manner. Bottom line, though, is that one way or the other, it doesn't much matter- because it was me...and this is the internet, and you don't KNOW me....try it yourself, and then you'll KNOW, vice think.

Facta non verba.

Cheers-Garry

PS- this show me attitude works for a variety of situations

 

[Britney Spears]

Garry:

Your 30 foot knife drill is well known amongst LE circles and I imagine most of our readers on this thread as well. It's a controlled test under a specific situation that doesn't have a great deal of meaning on the modern battlefield. For your drill to prove anything you are assuming that

- Your rifle is dry(as in you have NO ammo left) or broken (Maybe a good time to draw and ready your pistol? Hmm?)

- While your rifle is dry or broken, and you're standing there stunned with your pistol still in the holster, an enemy armed with a knife sees you, but you don't see him.

- The knife wielding enemy then makes a decision that he's going to try to rush a man armed with both a rifle and a pistol, presumably he has guessed that your rifle is empty and sees that your pistol is still holstered.

- The enemy stealthily makes his way to within 30 ft of your position, while you are still standing there stunned with pistol holstered. At this point he suddenly gets up and runs at you with knife drawn.

- Of course we'll have to assume that all your section mates are either dead or not paying attention.

So yes, you are probably right that a determined enemy can close a 30 ft gap before most of us can draw a pistol, especially if we haven't been doing a lot of specific pistol training (an unfortunate reality today, I'm afraid), but at that point, so many people would have had to screw up so many things that in all likelyhood there's a barrage of 155mm (or 105mm today i suppose)  inbound 4 seconds above your head and you're all dead anyway. The question from the beginning of the thread still remains: what are the chances that such a situation could occur?

Wise words an old man once told me:

" If you're close enough to get into a bayonet fight, then either his arty is about to fall on you or your own arty is about to fall on you, probably both. In any case sitcking around to cross bayonets is a bad idea."

I'll take up serious bayonet fighting when the enemy figures out how to  run 2300ft/s.    ;D

 

[Garry]

Britney,

In spite of the sarcasm, you have a point.

We could what if this to death (heck, y'all already have). I think, though, that we could eventually arrive at a situation where a soldier is not standing around, slack jawed, wating to die ......

Suffice it to say that there are a lot of options available, and one should try and plan their response to a critical incident while one has time on their hands. Being face to face with someone who truly doesn't like you is not the time to find out that what you "thought" would work, doesn't.

Bottom line, train. If what you're taught doesn't work, find another way. Once you've found another way, practice that.

Point in all of this is, I read pretty much nothing in the preceeding pages that said "hey, I tried this with a bayonet and it worked great"....or "I tried this with a bayonet, not worth it....so now I do this". What I read was "I think, I believe, how about"...and my favourite "the SF/JTF/Delta guys use....."...sheesh.

And as for the "smart man"....I agree 100%. I'd go so far as to say that if you're within rifle range, you probably should be running"

(Old cowardly Tanker)  8)

Cheers.

 

[Kal]

Garry

I hope you are not under the impression that I was attacking your opinion, I had no such intention.

What you said about the 30 foot drill and people spilling BS is the truth.  I have tried the drill in the past as you suggested also.  What I have found is that the attacker with attack differently when having a different weapon.  (well duh, eh)  When attacking with a knife or some type of impact weapon, they will run at you, when using a firearm, they will usually draw and shoot from a stationary position, and the good ones will draw and shoot on the move.  I found that I had a very hard time getting my arms extended for accurate shooting when they charged, that's why I said I wouldn't want to build so much muscle memory there.  Biggest lesson learned, MOVE.  If you don't move, you're in it much more worse than if you would have.  Personally, if the attacker is charging and we are within a couple feet of each other, or is already on me, I will engage with some type of hand-to-hand tactic to buy myself a second to draw and fire.  If the attacker is starting their attack within a couple feet, and I just try to draw and shoot, I may get off a couple rounds, but I will be badly injured or killed shortly.  This is because, if I focus only trying to draw and shoot, I will not defend myself from the occuring attack and will incur multiple slashes, stabs or impacts.  I was watching a video in which the attacker was armed with a foam brick, and the 'good guy' had his pistol holstered.  The attack started within about 4 feet of each other, the 'good guy' got whacked with that brick 2 or 3 times before he was able to draw and fire, because he only focused on drawing.  What is to say that first strike didn't knock him out and the attacker when on to kill him...  

I Believe a great learning resource and case study is the EXTREME CLOSE-QUARTERS SHOOTING video by Ralph Mroz.  I forget what the exact statistic is, but it's something along the lines of all LE shootings happen within 9 feet, considerably shorter than 30.  There isn't a stat for civvy shooting, but I would assume it would be the same, is not closer.  I found though, if the attacker is attacking within a few feet, it is better for me to move, disrupt their draw, grab hold the weapon bearing limb if it's a weapon other than a firearm, use my empty hand tactics if I have no weapon out, then draw and fire.  If I can get to the back of the target, even better.