British Military Current Events

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Sea sickness patches, anyone?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sea sickness patches, anyone?

You know we cant get them from the medical system anymore.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I didn't know that: pills only, now?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I didn't know that: pills only, now?

Yup.

But I buy patches from Amazon.

 

[Blackadder1916]

You know we cant get them from the medical system anymore.

No longer familiar with the military formulary, but if the patch of choice was Scopolamine (i.e., Transderm V) the reason would be because it's no longer available in Canada.

 

[Halifax Tar]

No longer familiar with the military formulary, but if the patch of choice was Scopolamine (i.e., Transderm V) the reason would be because it's no longer available in Canada.

And that's exactly what my Doc told me on CHA Why did this happen ? Do you know ?

Merci Beaucoup!

 

[FJAG]

Without a doubt something is awry in our medical system.

But troops also shouldn't arrive in battle vomiting and unsteady either because of the equipment the crown bought them.

I agree that it shouldn't.

I spent years as my younger self bouncing around in M113s and M577s and because of their aluminum hulls they're pretty light, bounce and vibrate and are loud. I can't ever recall anyone getting sick in them even when buttoned down in the back. Mind you fifty years later I do have tinnitus to which they no doubt contributed - but at the time . . .

You can run tests on the physical aspects of vehicles and my understanding is that AJAX had been tested extensively and whatever was wrong with them initially had been worked out. The basic ASCOD model has been in service with Austria and Spain for decades. It's not like its experimental.

The problem now is what do you do with almost 600 of these things which were supposed to be the stars of modern cavalry warfare. These aren't the type of injuries that can be easily confirmed or analyzed. My guess is that regardless of what is done, there will now always be some folks complaining of these symptoms.

Mass psychogenic illness (MPI), also called mass sociogenic illness, mass psychogenic disorder, epidemic hysteria or mass hysteria, involves the spread of illness symptoms through a population where there is no infectious agent responsible for contagion. It is the rapid spread of illness signs and symptoms affecting members of a cohesive group, originating from a nervous system disturbance involving excitation, loss, or alteration of function, whereby physical complaints that are exhibited unconsciously have no corresponding organic causes that are known

The simple fact is that operating heavy machinery, whether military or construction, comes with high levels of vibration, noise and erratic movement. Those can cause headaches, disorientation and nausea (especially when buttoned up).

I know that these days it's not on to say "its all in their heads," . . . but. Clearly some additional independent testing is necessary - such as comparing the physical conditions in AJAX to those in older generations of tracked vehicles and then comparing the identified medical conditions of the various users. Better ear protection is an easy solution. Transferring folks who get nauseous to a different branch/workspace may be necessary as well if a "fixable" issue on AJAX can't be identified. My guess is after years of dealing with this, there are no longer any "fixable" issues to address with the vehicle. It may need to turn to removing the folks who can't handle that work.

Rock. Hard Place.

 

[Blackadder1916]

And that's exactly what my Doc told me on CHA Why did this happen ? Do you know ?

Merci Beaucoup!

What I've seen indicated that it was a combination of supply chain issues as well as reports of hyperthermia (overheating) associated with its use. One of the practicing PAs might have a better idea. I haven't used scopolamine in decades (never personally - motion sickness was never a problem) but when OTC remedies didn't provide relief, a quick shot in the arm was enough to keep the use of barf bags to a minimum (Ex Kernal Potlach '79 - 3 PPCLI, Provider, Cleveland LPD7 and splashing around in LCMs and Amtraks).

 

[Halifax Tar]

I agree that it shouldn't.

I spent years as my younger self bouncing around in M113s and M577s and because of their aluminum hulls they're pretty light, bounce and vibrate and are loud. I can't ever recall anyone getting sick in them even when buttoned down in the back. Mind you fifty years later I do have tinnitus to which they no doubt contributed - but at the time . . .

You can run tests on the physical aspects of vehicles and my understanding is that AJAX had been tested extensively and whatever was wrong with them initially had been worked out. The basic ASCOD model has been in service with Austria and Spain for decades. It's not like its experimental.

The problem now is what do you do with almost 600 of these things which were supposed to be the stars of modern cavalry warfare. These aren't the type of injuries that can be easily confirmed or analyzed. My guess is that regardless of what is done, there will now always be some folks complaining of these symptoms.



The simple fact is that operating heavy machinery, whether military or construction, comes with high levels of vibration, noise and erratic movement. Those can cause headaches, disorientation and nausea (especially when buttoned up).

I know that these days it's not on to say "its all in their heads," . . . but. Clearly some additional independent testing is necessary - such as comparing the physical conditions in AJAX to those in older generations of tracked vehicles and then comparing the identified medical conditions of the various users. Better ear protection is an easy solution. Transferring folks who get nauseous to a different branch/workspace may be necessary as well if a "fixable" issue on AJAX can't be identified. My guess is after years of dealing with this, there are no longer any "fixable" issues to address with the vehicle. It may need to turn to removing the folks who can't handle that work.

Rock. Hard Place.

I see you dusted off the old "it sucked for me so it should suck for them" mantra. Traditional CAF leadership at its finest.

Look the fact is this is a shit eater problem so who really cares, but we should be looking at ways to improve things. Not accept shittiness because that's what we experienced.

Also if you cant tell the obvious signs someone is vomiting and unsteady on their feet, come for a run ashore sometime

 

[Kirkhill]

ASCOD (Pizarro / Ulan) Armoured Fighting Vehicle - Army Technology

The ASCOD armoured fighting vehicle is named Pizarro in Spain and Ulan in Austria Recommended White Papers Whitepaper Switch and…

www.army-technology.com

Ajax - General Dynamics UK

AJAX The future of Armoured Fighting Vehicles AJAX is the next-generation of Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFV). Fully-digital and fully-integrated, it enables soldiers to ‘See First, Decide First, Act First’ on the modern battlefield. Providing best-in-class protection and survivability...

generaldynamics.uk.com

....

Ajax is to ASCOD as TAPV is to the ASV and Constellation is to FREMM.


Designs have limits.

 

[FJAG]

I see you dusted off the old "it sucked for me so it should suck for them" mantra. Traditional CAF leadership at its finest.

Boy. You're angry today.

Just to help you analyze what I wrote. It wasn't that "it sucked for me so it should suck for them." The main message that I'm sending is that "it didn't suck for me, nor my guys, at all." Sure. The noise was an issue but that's because we had cheap ass ear plugs then. That's been vastly improved and can be improved even more.

What I'm saying here is that: a) there can be a further problem with the machine - despite extensive testing already - that might benefit form more testing and/or that b) it may also be that the machine isn't the problem and that the problem may be some of the people that is unconnected to the vehicle itself such the best solution to the problem may very well be to keep those people away from the machine and put them somewhere else where they can be useful.

And just as an aside, I'd put my generation's leadership up against yours any day of the week.

Look the fact is this is a shit eater problem so who really cares, but we should be looking at ways to improve things. Not accept shittiness because that's what we experienced.

It's not at all. If you've followed this issue you'd see that they've worked at understanding and fixing this problem - as it is - for years and after extensive testing have considered any problems resolved. You can speculate all you want about how adequate that testing was but in the end, they worked on it extensively. And I reiterate - I didn't experience shittiness which is the point - why are things suddenly shitty when technology has improved by leaps and bounds?

Also if you cant tell the obvious signs someone is vomiting and unsteady on their feet, come for a run ashore sometime

The signs that someone is vomiting or unsteady are mostly obvious. The reasons for it are not. One can speculate that there's always fakery or last night's pub crawl as well. Then there's mass psychogenic illness brought on by something other than the physical impacts of the vehicle. Maybe they have inner ear problems; who knows.

But let's call a spade a spade. Do I and my generation think that today's generation is subsumed by wimps. To an extent, yes. But, we had our share of those too. The medical literature is full of case studies of some folks who couldn't hack this or that thing be it military life, or the pressures of an office or assembly line, or their sexual preferences. The generational difference is that we didn't go around blaming everything else for that person's shortcomings. Today's western society seems to have convinced itself that everything needs to cater to the lowest common denominator amongst them. If they appear ill - then its the environment. If they don't fit in with their peers - then let's invent a new category of peers for them to be a part of. But above all else, DO NOT try to say that someone just isn't measuring up. Some folks don't. Often through no fault of their own. It's reminiscent of the early days when some tanks were so small that only the smallest soldiers could be fit into them. Sometimes there are limits as to who can do the job.

The point here is quite simply that the UK has invested billions in these vehicles which are critical to their army. Scrapping them is out of the question. They've already been tested extensively. Things are now going to be examined again. The simple fact is that you can't do this over and over again every time Trooper Bloggins pops out of the back of his track at throws up. There's a point in time where leadership has to man up and say "Let's get on with it" and use the vehicle.

Let the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands begin.

 

[daftandbarmy]

ACSOD is the vehicle from which the Ajax was derived.

ASCOD 2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Slovakians scored it at #3/3 in a recent AFV competition...

The ASCOD 42 managed to reach a score of 92.80% being only bested by the CV90 variants – but due to unresolved vibration problems it was demoted to third place. The Slovak MoD believes that the issue is connected to the current design of the vehicle and apparently is the result of the resonance of the vehicle when driving hard surfaces. As the issue apparently has not been solved, it posed a risk of further issues and delays in the project.

Slovakia announces the CV90 Mk IV as its preferred IFV – Below The Turret Ring

below-the-turret-ring.com

 

[OldSolduer]

I agree that it shouldn't.

I spent years as my younger self bouncing around in M113s and M577s and because of their aluminum hulls they're pretty light, bounce and vibrate and are loud. I can't ever recall anyone getting sick in them even when buttoned down in the back. Mind you fifty years later I do have tinnitus to which they no doubt contributed - but at the time . . .





The simple fact is that operating heavy machinery, whether military or construction, comes with high levels of vibration, noise and erratic movement. Those can cause headaches, disorientation and nausea (especially when buttoned up).

I know of at least one who suffered from motion sickness.

Before I joined the CAF I operated tractors and combines - no cabs BTW - and its noisy especially during harvest. And the machines do vibrate, so I reckon if you're not used to it you may get sick.

 

[FJAG]

ACSOD is the vehicle from which the Ajax was derived.

. . .

The ASCOD 42 managed to reach a score of 92.80% being only bested by the CV90 variants – but due to unresolved vibration problems it was demoted to third place. The Slovak MoD believes that the issue is connected to the current design of the vehicle and apparently is the result of the resonance of the vehicle when driving hard surfaces. As the issue apparently has not been solved, it posed a risk of further issues and delays in the project.

Well written article. I note it was a 2022 article while the AJAX was still undergoing evaluation and repairs. It also appears that this was mostly a "paper" evaluation.

it appears that most of the tender is the result of a “paper evaluation” without a deeper look at performance of individual sub-systems and the effects on overall vehicle performance. I.e. only selected tactical and technical requirements were tested during a period of five days (from second to sixth of May) – with the three vehicles being tested in sequence rather than side-by-side.