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Buying/selling Medals Superthread [merged]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bulvyn
  • Start date Start date
X-mo-1979 said:
"Some people have good reasons for collecting medals.Regimental museums etc.However people buying and selling peoples decorations for profit is a tad much in my opinion"

Yes.As I said,its not really worth much.....but I'll give you 50 bucks for the collection.
Making profit off of peoples lack of knowledge of what they actually have itsnt right in my opinion.

not trying to be shady by leaving that out sorry.Just really didnt see its importance.However it is also now explained.

I apparently made some people angry on the issue,i'll back away from it now.You guys have been here for a while,and are most likely right on the subject.

Sorry for that,I'll try to keep my opinions to facts I can back up. :)

Meh,

I totally agree with your sentiment, but until we can find a filter for the all of the Used Car Salesmen, there is no need for a prohibition of the sale of historical items.  Mr. Stoffer's statement is only a method to gain press time.  Is he ready to ban Christies, Bonhams or Sotheby's for selling historical items?  What are his parameters of "Sacrificing for ones Country"?  Shall we block the works of Farley Mowat from eBay for the fact that he served, therefore not receiving residuals from every sale of his books?

Where do we draw the line?  What is Mr. Stoffer's agenda, or his plan for such a strong statement to be used?

dileas

tess

 
There are collectors (like me too), and scum sucking dealers, not all dealers are scum sucking, but they are only chasing the dollars, putting emotion and sentinementality aside.

My 2 bob,

Wes
 
X-mo-1979 said:
Yes.As I said,its not really worth much.....but I'll give you 50 bucks for the collection.
Making profit off of peoples lack of knowledge of what they actually have itsnt right in my opinion.

not trying to be shady by leaving that out sorry.Just really didnt see its importance.However it is also now explained.

Undoubtedly there have been and are shady dealers who would rip people off if the opportunity arose, as there are in every field of trade... I can tell you that those businesses and individuals are quickly found out, blacklisted and drummed out of the business.

Just like any other business you can expect to sell at a lower price and see the item sold at market value unless you have a buyer lined up on your own. That is how business works.

My father built his business not by ripping off old ladies, but by knowing the fair value of every item presented to him (or knowing who would know) and then knowing who was looking to purchase such an item.

The fact that the individual specifics of an item is what makes it valuable in the militaria field also make it very hard to hock stolen or forged goods in this industry. Stolen/fraudulent items are not like auto and stereo parts, the only reason they are valuable are because they were awarded to Pte Bloggins of xyz Battalion during such and such a battle on this date etc etc...

Mr. Stoffer may think his heart is in the right place, but he has not done his homework and is WAY OFF in his proposed solution!
 
Working at Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DH&R) we used to get medals sent to us from time to time, some pretty impressive racks.  they were sent to us by families that didn't want them and had no idea what else to do with them.  To a person all these well families believed that it was wrong to sell their family members honours to a collector, because somehow that word has become synonymous with crook.

It was enough to make you weep.  You see DH&R's policy with regard to returned medals is to destroy them.  Yep, rip the ribons off and melt them down into slag.  That's the honour they are supposed to receive.

Luckily, my predecessor, myself and my replacement (so far as I know) have refused to do this.  However, all those medals are just sitting in a cardboard box in our vault, for all intents and purposes their history has been lost.  The story behind the medals has been lost and will remain lost until some direct relative of that soldier decides that he/she does care and asks for them to be returned or replaced.

I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to return a mans medals to him.  He had shipped them to DH&R after the Somalia incident in disgust of the governments treatment of the whole thing.  He was astounded to get them back.  I considered it one of the best things I did there.

Mr Stouffer apparently doesn't understand what makes these medals valuable either.  Collectors want provenance with the medals.  They want to know the story because it is THE history behind the thing that makes its value.  There are hundreds of thousands of Atlantic Stars but only one that was awarded to my Grandfather Able Seaman Henry Furness Leggett who was mentioned in dispatches for actions when the HMCS Fraser was sunk.

This is a stupid idea.  On another note I think the whole thing could be stopped if someone pointed out that the NDP is just riding the coattails of the American "Stolen valour" law.  :-\
 
I am not a medal collector, but do appreciate the preservation of history done by legitimate collectors. As noted, not all dealers are ethical; the following story is offered as an example. A few years ago a friend in the UK emailed me for help in validating a medal being offered for sale. (At this time he was not aware that the Boer War files and medal roll had recently been put on line.) The medal was a Queen's South Africa Medal (QSAM) with three bars, including the Relief of Mafeking. This would make it quite rare as only about 75 Canadians, all members of C Bty, were awarded that bar. Unfortunately the soldier - a member of 2 RCR - whose name and number was engraved on this medal was not one of them. The dealer had removed one of the existing three bars and replaced it with the Relief of Mafeking bar, thus artifically inflating the price.

My friend recently contacted me with a rather odd tale. He had come across a QSAM awarded to a member of B Sqn, RCD which included the Paardeberg Bar. We both independently examined his records on line and confirmed that he was at sea in transit to South Africa while Paardeberg was being fought. Anyway, a few years after the war he concocted a story and was able to convince the Department of Militia and Defence to award him the Paardeberg Bar. I am not sure if my friend purchased the medal, but it should have some extra value for its illicit nature.

I am sure serious medal collectors have lots of similar tales.
 
An RCD concoct a story?  During the Boer war!! Never!  I won't hear it!!!

History buffs, check your sarcasm meter. ;D
 
>Peter is against people making profit from selling medals won with blood...is that a bad thing?

His feelings on the matter are not a bad thing; his desire to legislate his feelings is the bad thing.

Medals won with blood (or otherwise) are the property of the people awarded the medals, and subsequently the property of those to whom the original owners transfer title.  Stoffer's proposal is basically to say: "That medal you won with your blood?  It's really the collective property of Canada."  He is treating the medals as property as much as does the veteran or family or collector; but rather than trade openly he proposes in a sense to appropriate.
 
I respectfully suggest that you folks who feel strongly about this should send Peter an email. I don't have any time for the party he belongs to...many people have pointed out they feel the same way. Peter is a staunch supporter of Veterans and serving members....he probably had more CF members in his riding of Sackville than any other MP in Canada. I have met him several times and every time I meet him I tell him he is working for the wrong party because his views on Defence are not those of his Party and their leader. As pointed out by others here I believe his intentions are honourable but he may not realize the full impact of his position.....here's how you can tell him

Parliament Hill:
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6
Tel: 613-995-5822
stoffp@parl.gc.ca

Constituency:
2900 Hwy #2
Fall River, N.S. B2T 1W4
Tel: 902-861-2311
Fax: 902-861-4620
stoffp1@parl.gc.ca




 
X-mo-1979 said:
I believe what he was getting at are those collectors who rip people off.Those medals are pretty common,or their not worth much being famous quotes.Taking advantage of people looking for enough money to get by.

Did you ever think some of those medals you hold are only in your hands due to a family needing money?Looking around their houses and the most valuable thing they can find is some medals.Sell's them to a collector for a fraction of the price he sells them for.

Some people have good reasons for collecting medals.Regimental museums etc.However people buying and selling peoples decorations for profit is a tad much in my opinion.

X Mo 1979
You should know that many medals are sold off by the recipients themselves.  Not necessarily because they need the cash but to dispense with some of the memories they bring back.

So long as "market" establishes a "fair" price for the decoration, I don't have a particular problem with the practice of selling the medal to someone with an interest in collecting/researching the items AND the funds to do so properly.
 
the 48th regulator said:
Where do we draw the line?  What is Mr. Stoffer's agenda, or his plan for such a strong statement to be used? 

You made 'flavour of the week'.  No different than Dellaire's comments earlier this year that anyone who sells their military skills is a low form of life etc...
 
Did any of you email him and continue the democratic process or are you all just going to sit back and take the media's word for what he said and go on grumbling in your beer? ::)
 
IN HOC SIGNO said:
Did any of you email him and continue the democratic process or are you all just going to sit back and take the media's word for what he said and go on grumbling in your beer? ::)

It's an open forum, feel free to send him the link.

dileas

tess
 
....museums anyone????
Do they not collect and make a profit by admission fees?
Ignorance is bliss.
 
Jammer said:
....museums anyone????
Do they not collect and make a profit by admission fees?
Ignorance is bliss.

Some museums already have drawers full of them.

...

There's no ignorance involved there at all.

Realisticly, how many do you suggest they purchase, only to not research and restore and to stow away forever unseen? Should this be the responsibility of Museums -- to pay for and collect medals for infinite storage because the original owner/family, for whatever their reasons were, has decided to part with them? What are you going to do in the future when those museums run out of space -- make them use those admission fees to build a larger storage vault too?

I'm sure those museums would appreciate being mandated as to what & how they spend their money. What happens when a very rare artifact comes along (I'm thinking RCAF Museum Trenton & it's Halifax Bomber -- very expensive to acquire & restore it was) -- and that Museum would love to have it, but can't afford to due to buying up people's no-longer-wanted medals?


Edited to add:

Reading your post again ... and can see it in the context that it was made now ...

Yep, like 99% of the collectors out there -- they are certainly collecting & making a profit, and -- like 99% of the collectors ... put much of those profits out to restore and research the artifact. Good on them.
 
Jammer said:
....museums anyone????
Do they not collect and make a profit by admission fees?
Ignorance is bliss.

Museums do not profit from admission fees.  Between staff costs AND maintenance expenses, they don't have much left at the end of the day.
 
>Did any of you email him and continue the democratic process or are you all just going to sit back and take the media's word for what he said and go on grumbling in your beer?

If he's going to climb down from the private member's bill the "media's word" says he has in the works, I'd rather he do it via the media and wear it publicly than in the comfortable political anonymity of personal email.  If he's not going to back off, what is there to talk about?
 
I am collector, and among others I remember Private Henry William Krimmel.  Private Krimmel died in the First World War, his unit of record is the 7th Light Trench Mortar Battery, a unit which has no perpetuating unit to represent him and his sacrifice to Canadians.

A while ago I acquired Henry Krimmel's Memorial Plaque, which would have been sent to his family after the War to commemorate his loss.  I didn't buy this plaque simply to profit from it or because he was a mortarman, but because I recognized his service number (477501) as a soldier of The Royal Canadian Regiment.  I knew this because my own research to date into my Regiment gave me the knowledge to watch for such clues.

After Krimmel's plaque came into my collection, I requested (and paid for) a complete copy of his service record from Library and Archives Canada to learn more about the service and death of this soldier.  The narrative I constructed from his file is posted below, I would encourage all to read it.  If Krimmel's plaque (for certainly it is as representative of his sacrifice as his medals) had been required to go to a Museum, he would have been forgotten.

Allow me to introduce you to 477501 Private Henry William Krimmel, may he rest in peace and always be remembered by those for whom he gave his life.

477501 Private Henry William Krimmel

Introduction

Henry William Krimmel attested for overseas service with the CEF at Halifax, NS, on 22 August 1915.  He was a Canadian Permanent Force soldier who had previously served in the British Army and in Bermuda with The RCR. He served overseas with The RCR until late 1917 when he transferred to the 7th Light Trench Mortar Battery. In late March 1918, Krimmel was badly burned in an accidental fire, and died of shock a few days later on 4 April 1918.


Henry William Krimmel

Slightly below average sized for the era at 5 ft 5 1/2 in and weighing about 118 pounds, Henry William Krimmel was recorded as having a fair complexion, blue eyes and brown hair.  An experienced soldier when he joined the Canadian Army, he carried tattoos gained during his earlier service in the British Army  - St George and the Dragon on his chest, a parrot and butterfly on his left forearm and a peacock and birds on right forearm.


Family

Henry William Krimmel was born 11 March 1883 at Bethnal Green, London, England. His father, H.W. Krimmel, lived at 285 Corfield St, Bethnal Green during Henry's CEF service.  Henry's service record notes in 1922 that his mother was deceased.

Later in his service Henry gave a next of kin and address as c/o Mrs R. Simmonds Mission House, Glasgow Terrace, Lupus St, London S.W., England.  He also identified one sister, Mrs L. Chubb living at 34 Harcourt Rd., Stratford, England.


Prior Service

Krimmel served in the British Army for 8 years, 46 days with the Royal Sussex Regiment from 4 Oct 1901 to 18 Nov 1908.

There is no indication in his Canadian service records whether he served in the 1st or 2nd Battalion of the Royal Sussex.  During this period the 1st Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment served at Sitapur  (1902), Rhaniket (1904), Rawalpindi (1905), Umballa (1906), and Solon (1908). The 2nd Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment served at Shorncliffe  (1902), Malta (1904), Crete (1905) and Ireland: Belfast (1907).

Henry William Krimmel was taken on strength The Royal Canadian Regiment (The RCR) in Toronto, ON, on 17 September 1913.  He was assigned regimental number 12217.

His character on release from the British Army was recorded by The RCR as "exemplary" and was likely transcribed from his discharge certificate.

Henry William Krimmel was in good health during his early years of service.  He was noted as requiring no hospital admissions in either Toronto or Halifax or while in Bermuda during his Permanent Force service.


CEF Service

Henry William Krimmel served with the Regiment in Bermuda (1914-15) and, after returning to Halifax, NS, with the Regiment, attested for overseas service with the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) on 22 August 1915.  His regimental number was replaced with the CEF service number 477501.

Krimmel disembarked at Boulogne with The RCR on 1 Nov 1915.  He served continuously with the Regiment and was briefly hospitalized from 29 April to 5 May 1916 for a laceration of the left wrist.

On 23 Jul 1916 he was attached to the 7th Light Trench Mortar Battery, the brigade mortar battery for the 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade, to which The RCR belonged.  While serving with the Battery, he was granted a "Good Conduct Badge" for 2 years service on 20 Nov 1916.  He also enjoyed a 10-day leave period between 20 Dec 1916 when the leave was granted and 3 Jan 1917 when he returned to his unit.

On 1 Oct 1917, Krimmel was finally struck off the strength of The RCR and officially transferred to the 7th T.M. Bty.  He was granted a further 14-day leave period which ran from 30 November to 15 December 1917. 

Krimmel was attached to the 1st Army School of Cookery at Bethune from 21 Mar 1918. On the night of 28/29 March 1918, Henry William Krimmel suffered severe burns to his hands, face and head.  This occurred accidentally in a storeroom in which he was sleeping while at the 1st Army School of Cookery.  Krimmel was admitted to 8 Canadian Field Ambulance and also the 57th Casualty Clearing Station.  He died from the shock of his injuries on 4 Apr 1918.


CEF Pay

Henry Krimmel was paid $1.00 per day as a Private.  In addition to this pay he received 10 cents daily Field Allowance. Krimmel had Assigned Pay to his sister, Mrs L. Chubb, 34 Harcourt Rd., Stratford, England. (Sister).  This assignment of $15 per month commenced 1 April 1918 and only one payment was made on his behalf before his death.


Court of Inquiry into Death of 477501 Pte H.W. Krimmel

On 6 April 1918, by order of G.O.C. 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade, a Court of Enquiry was assembled "In the Field" for the purpose of enquiring into and reporting upon the circumstances surrounding the injuries occasioned by fire to No. 477501 Pte. Krimmel H. 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery on 29 Mar 1918

The officers of the Court were Capt L.M. McCarthy; Cdn. Railway Troops (President), Lieut E.W. Duval; P.P.C.L.I. and Lieut. G.S. Ashby; 42nd Cdn. Battalion.

Evidence heard included the following statements:

No. 136165 Pte J.E. Webb, 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery -  "On the night of March 28/29th, I was on gas guard from 12 midnight to 3.00 a.m. at CROSS STREET, and at about 2.00 a.m. when passing [the] storehouse door I smelt smoke. Upon opening same the storehouse burst into flames and No. 477501 Pte. Krimmel, H. staggered out of the storehouse, making some comment about his tunic.  I immediately roused others in the hut adjacent to the storehouse."

No. 455223 Pte. F.E. Stewart, 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery -  "At or about 2.00 o'clock on the morning of the 29th March I was awakened by Pte. J.E. Webb and told that the storehouse immediately adjacent was on fire.  I, along with others, grabbed fire buckets and assisted to extinguish the fire.  I have no knowledge or opinion as to the cause of the fire. Pte. Krimmel had spent the evening with us playing cards in our bunk room and left about 12 o'clock.  There was no liquor consumed during the evening in our hut."

No. 475775 Cpl. J.H. Blair, 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery -  "About two o'clock on the morning of the March 29, I was awakened by Pte. J.E. Webb and told the storehouse was on fire.  I supervised the extinguishing of the fire.  On examining the storehouse later in the morning I noticed that with the exception of two at the bottom a pile of roughly 24 mens' packs was entirely destroyed.  There was an old fireplace in this storehouse but never, to my knowledge, was the fireplace used since the 7th Cdn. Trench Mortar Battery took over the storehouse.  I saw Pte. Krimmel at 10.00 p.m. 28th March; he was quite sober.  There was no liquor in the camp, nor do I think he had left the camp that evening."

Lieut. J.F. McNeill, Royal Canadian Regiment, attached 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery - "As Officer i/c. 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery (Rear), in my rounds on the 28th March I noted that the fire buckets were properly filled.  The men had received proper instructions as to action in event of fire.  The fire which occurred in the storeroom at about 2.00 a.m. 29th March was quickly extinguished.  We had no oil in the camp this date.  Pte. Krimmel was not using lamps in either cookhouse or the storeroom in which he slept."

Lieut. J.F. McNeill, The RCR, attached 7th Cdn T.M. Battery, on being recalled, produced a copy of the unit's Fire Orders which were not preserved in Inquiry file.

The Court's conclusions, based on the presented statements and evidence, were as follows:

"In the matter of the circumstances concerning injuries occasioned by fire to No. 477501 Pte. Krimmel, H. 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, 29-3-18, the Court, having heard the evidence of available witnesses, are of the opinion that the testimony given is not such as would be able to form a definite opinion as to the cause of the fire.  The Court regrets its inability to secure evidence from No. 477501 Pte. Krimmel.  It is of the opinion that no negligence on the part of others contributed to the injuries sustained by Krimmel or loss of property as a result of the fire."

The findings of the Court of Inquiry received concurrence from Brigadier General Hugh M. Dyer, Commanding 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade on 9 April 1918.  The recommendations prepared for his signature stated: "I concur in the findings of the Court, and recommend that, in the view of the fact that all necessary precautions for the prevention of fire appear to have been taken, the articles destroyed to be replaced at the expense of the public."

The Report on Accidental or Self-Inflicted Injuries prepared following Krimmel's injury and death described his injuries as "Burns, face, head and hands. Fairly severe."

The brief description of events was recorded as "Gas Guard discovered fire in room where the above was sleeping. He immediately gave the alarm and went to the assistance of the injured man.  Other men put out the fire." 

The Commanding Officer's  opinion was given that Krimmel was off-duty at the time of the accident, but that neither he nor others were to blame for Krimmel's injuries.  No disciplinary action against any member of the unit was recommended.


Krimmel's Will

477501 KRIMMEL, Henry William Krimmel had completed a will leaving all his "real estate" and his "personal estate" to Mrs Krimmel (93 Field Rd. Forest Gate, Essex Eng.).  This will was completed on 13 Oct 1915.  The will form included the annotation that "Personal estate includes pay, effects, money in bank, insurance policy, in fact everything except real estate."


Canadian Virtual War Memorial

The Record in the Canadian Virtual War Memorial for Krimmel reads:

In memory of Private HENRY WILLIAM KRIMMEL who died on April 4, 1918.

  • Service Number: 477501
  • Age: 37
  • Unit: Canadian Light Trench Mortar Battery
  • Son of Henry William and Emma Krimmel, of London, England.


Krimmel is commemorated on Page 443 of the First World War Book of Remembrance. The seven Books of Remembrance lie in the Memorial Chamber in the Peace Tower on Parliament Hill. Together, they commemorate the lives of more than 118,000 Canadians who, since Confederation, have made the ultimate sacrifice while serving Canada in uniform. The First World War Book of Remembrance  was the first Book of Remembrance created, and is the largest of the Books, containing more than 66,000 names.

Krimmel is buried in the Aubigny Communal Cemetery Extension, Pas de Calais, France. (Grave Reference: III. D. 55.) The cemetery is south of the village of Aubigny-en-Artois and the Cemetery Extension is behind it. Aubigny-en-Artois is approximately 15 kilometres north-west of Arras on the road to St. Pol. After turning into the village from the N.39 on the D.75, the Cemetery lies south on a road leading from the centre of the village.

Pro Patria
 
Michael O`Leary said:
...The Report on Accidental or Self-Inflicted Injuries prepared following Krimmel's injury and death described his injuries as "Burns, face, head and hands. Fairly severe."...

A salute to your inquiries, surprising how much information can be had for a person who served and died so long ago. 

Interesting bit on the report (above).  Accidents and self-inflicted injuries were pretty much treated the same?  However, anyone who truly did have an accident would be forever have to explain the implication that their accident might not really have been an 'accident' ...

 
Greymatters said:
Accidents and self-inflicted injuries were pretty much treated the same?

I do not believe the were treated the same, they just had a common form.
 
- Not that long ago, before it became de rigeur to support the troops, much of the Canadian 'left' viewed all military memorabilia as capitalistic trinkets perpetuating colonialism.  Revolutionary wars and 'progressive' peoples liberation struggles were, of course, untouchable.

- These feelings were apparent in the subordination of the Canadian War Museum and the short shrift given Canadian military history by our educational bureaucracies.

- Those times WILL return with a vengeance, and the goal of 'securing' medals and accoutrements is a step on the way to demilitarizing Canadian families.  Once the medals have been donated and collections siezed from collectors, families will lose the culture perpetuating a military ethos.  Museums will then rotate the collections into storage and replace them with more 'relevant' items.

- Ten years from now there will be demands that the weapons be melted off the National War Memorial, the Northwest Rebellion Monument, the South African War Memorial (these just in Ottawa) etc., because of the 'trauma caused to our children' by seeing them.

- Wait for it...

 
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