C20 Semi-aut Sniper System

[Jarnhamar]

Thanks.  That still seems like a lot to pay.  Wouldn't the rifle, scope, accessories all be basically off the shelf? I'm guessing they aren't designing this stuff from scratch. It seems strange to include peoples salaries in cost to the DND.

 

[Weinie]

In a word, no.

The project has delivered a variety of sniper equipment including rifles. As previously noted, accessories for the rifles, spares, ammo etc would be included, as would salaries of staff employed on the project, as would other items of equipment.  Per the web page of the project, they also acquired night vision equipment, optics, cameras, concealment and personal protective equipment.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/sniper-systems-project.html

Note that the page is seven years old, so there may well have been changes in approach and scheduling over the life of the project.  For example, there have been projects where requests went to industry and no one offered a solution that met the standard or was within the budget available; in other instances, equipment integration failed and Canada had to return for new tenders; in still other cases, as further definition work was conducted, it was discovered that there were better ways to sequence an acquisition.

Only in Canada you say......pithy.

 

[Haggis]

Thanks.  That still seems like a lot to pay.  Wouldn't the rifle, scope, accessories all be basically off the shelf?

in some cases, yes. But we are talking high end accessories, some with proprietary features.  The suppressor itself is likely a custom piece, for example, and not manufactured in Canada.

It seems strange to include peoples salaries in cost to the DND.

Project costs routinely account for the salaries of the people who design, build, market and sell stuff.  Nobody works for free.

 

[dapaterson]

Project costs routinely account for the salaries of the people who design, build, market and sell stuff.  Nobody works for free.

Exactly.  There are a variety of reports to government, where DND/CAF is required to account for every penny (well, nickel nowdays).  If we did not report staff salaries for those actively engaged in defining and implementing projects as their full time job as project expenses, where would we attribute them?

 

[PuckChaser]

If we did not report staff salaries for those actively engaged in defining and implementing projects as their full time job as project expenses, where would we attribute them?

Do we fire them after they're done with that specific project, or do they move on to another project? If they're staying employed, it's a little disingenuous to keep accounting for them in each specific project as they're permanent full time employees in DND.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Exactly.  There are a variety of reports to government, where DND/CAF is required to account for every penny (well, nickel nowdays).  If we did not report staff salaries for those actively engaged in defining and implementing projects as their full time job as project expenses, where would we attribute them?

That makes sense. I was thinking you meant account for Colt Canada employee's.

 

[dapaterson]

Do we fire them after they're done with that specific project, or do they move on to another project? If they're staying employed, it's a little disingenuous to keep accounting for them in each specific project as they're permanent full time employees in DND.

It's both military pay and civilian pay that is attributed to the activity that the individual is doing.  The main project implementation Level 1s (ADM Mat, ADM IM and ADM IE) actually plan projects in part based on availability of personnel to do the work - in theory, the RCEME Capt who works to deliver the MK III Whatchamacallit can leverage that experience when she then moves on to be a Major working on the Mk II Thingamabob.

How then would you account for personnel costs associated with delivering projects if not against the projects?  To be fair, it is an accounting question that is sometimes the subject of debate.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It's both military pay and civilian pay that is attributed to the activity that the individual is doing.  The main project implementation Level 1s (ADM Mat, ADM IM and ADM IE) actually plan projects in part based on availability of personnel to do the work - in theory, the RCEME Capt who works to deliver the MK III Whatchamacallit can leverage that experience when she then moves on to be a Major working on the Mk II Thingamabob.

How then would you account for personnel costs associated with delivering projects if not against the projects?  To be fair, it is an accounting question that is sometimes the subject of debate.

We do this with our (civvy consulting) projects sometimes, especially when a client wants to see how much staff time has been saved so they can reallocate it to more value added activities.

It's seldom 100% accurate, and is usually based on a guesstimate of what an hour of 'full time employee' time is worth, but it's a good way to get s sense of the true cost, or cost savings, related to projects being funded with public cash.

 

[PuckChaser]

How then would you account for personnel costs associated with delivering projects if not against the projects?  To be fair, it is an accounting question that is sometimes the subject of debate.

Those PYs in project management are there to stay so they should be accounted for under a large "DND Project Management" header. How deep does the current accounting go? Do they cover the phone line costs for each individual? Blackberries? IS/IT assets? DND building lease/GILT? Heat/AC? Power usage? Water usage? If you're going to account for each individual PY, you're not getting a full cost analysis unless you figure out how many #2s are completed each day by the Project Team and what that sewage cost is to the Crown. My guess there's probably a lot of them completed... ;D

 

[daftandbarmy]

Those PYs in project management are there to stay so they should be accounted for under a large "DND Project Management" header. How deep does the current accounting go? Do they cover the phone line costs for each individual? Blackberries? IS/IT assets? DND building lease/GILT? Heat/AC? Power usage? Water usage? If you're going to account for each individual PY, you're not getting a full cost analysis unless you figure out how many #2s are completed each day by the Project Team and what that sewage cost is to the Crown. My guess there's probably a lot of them completed... ;D

Dude.... don't make suggestions like that on a public forum. After all, big consulting companies might be watching - and thinking

 

[CBH99]

Those PYs in project management are there to stay so they should be accounted for under a large "DND Project Management" header. How deep does the current accounting go? Do they cover the phone line costs for each individual? Blackberries? IS/IT assets? DND building lease/GILT? Heat/AC? Power usage? Water usage? If you're going to account for each individual PY, you're not getting a full cost analysis unless you figure out how many #2s are completed each day by the Project Team and what that sewage cost is to the Crown. My guess there's probably a lot of them completed... ;D

Great.  Now we need another HQ to closely analyze all of these things & factor in the costs, which truly don't matter because it's a given part of leasing office space.  People need to poop.


Sorry 1PPCLI, have a company worth of folks interested in an amazing career in Ottawa?

No?  Too bad. 


(But wait, who is going to keep track of the sewage bills of the new HQ?  We need another!)

 

[PuckChaser]

Great.  Now we need another HQ to closely analyze all of these things & factor in the costs, which truly don't matter because it's a given part of leasing office space.  People need to poop.

I'm sure DLR, DLCSPM, and whatever RCN and RCAF have for project offices can figure out how to count PYs and fill spreadsheets without creating a new HQ.

 

[IRepoCans]

The C20 SASW is not replacing the C14 MRSWS, nor is it intended to be a multicaliber platform (if it were, the secondary chambering would probably be 6.5mm not .338); the program is to replace the fleet of AR-10Ts and the EIS that came with the system (or more likely purchased by the employing elements specifically).

The C21 is the planned replacement for the C14 (which replaced the C3), which will be multicaliber (7.62 for training, and .338 for operations) similar in some scope to the American Mk. 22 ASR which is chambered in 7.62 for training; .300 Norma for anti-personnel; .338 Norma for anti-material; and, it can also take a few different calibers (like 6.5 Creedmoor which is being phased in amongst existing and planned USASOC marksman / sniper platforms).

C15 has no planned replacement yet, but depending how the C21 program goes you could see the calibers chambered increased and the need for the C15 to deliver anti-material effects diminished (and I think the folks behind it are watching the Mk22 very closely because the Americans are dropping their .50s in the anti-material role).

 

[ArmyRick]

Following

 

[OceanBonfire]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1521144931292696576

 

[KevinB]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1521144931292696576

Well the use of the Grip-pod told me all I needed to know.
Probably wearing Ronald McDonald shoes too...

 

[Fabius]

Ya the Grip-Pod caused me to do a double take... oh well.
Any idea why the front of the receiver is angled like that? Just so its special?

 

[KevinB]

Ya the Grip-Pod caused me to do a double take... oh well.
Any idea why the front of the receiver is angled like that? Just so its special?

It’s Colt’s beleaguered multi cal receiver. You can replace the magazine well section so it can run M16 mags and change the upper you have a large 5.56mm gun.

Apparently a sucker is borne every minute as no-one else who has tested it wants anything to do with it.

 

[Fabius]

Roger, Thanks. Why am I not surprised.

 

[KevinB]

Roger, Thanks. Why am I not surprised.

Non Competed contract - due to the whole Colt Canada Small Arms Monopoly/Right of First Refusal