C3 Howitzer Replacement

[FJAG]

That's where I think an NLOS Missile or Loitering Munition launcher would be a potential replacement for a long range gun. The advantage of something like a loitering munition is that it is launched to the location where the enemy fire originated THEN be able to identify and attack a target.

Artillery will hit the area where the enemy rounds were fired from whether the target is still there or not. Many rounds might be wasted hitting empty patches of dirt. A smart NLOS missile or Loitering Munition will go to where the enemy rounds were fired from THEN look for a target. If the enemy Arty has "scooted" then they can hunt them down and still take them out...but an artillery round will just bounce dirt where they used to be.

That's not quite correct.

Arty now has several choices including precision rounds fired at grid references controlled by GPS which seek the grid reference and not the target if moved. It also fires guided projectiles that will home in on a target illuminated from the ground or air, and will follow it if moving. Over and above that it offers area neutralization, smoke and illumination. Even dumb rounds or GPS rounds fired on sensor data like counter mortar radars will usually get there before the targeted guns can move. (Unless we have really horrible ROE again)

The systems are complimentary, not mutually exclusive. That said, I'm a great fan of NLOS and loitering munitions. We need that capability because - complimentary.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If that's a video of an M777 in Afghanistan then it was A Bty 1 RCHA on August 2nd, 2006 doing a direct fire mission at a grape hut just south of PB Wilson that was being used by snipers to harass PBW. The range was 311 metres. It was lazed. If you listen closely to the video you can hear a splinter come back to the position. Interestingly the M777 sits almost as low to the ground as the L5 did when in anti-tank mode. The barrel's about 3' off the ground, some of the other bits are a bit higher though. The mission was successful. The snipping stopped.

Yup we used to fire them back in the 70s. Not every year but every once in a while when local defence against the Soviet Hordes was high on someone's agenda. The round penetrates around 5 to 5.5 inches of Homogeneous steel regardless of range. T-34, had around 2 inches of armour on the front, just under 2 on the sides and just over 2 on the turret front. The big issue was its 60* slope on the front. The M67 skids off at around 30 to 35*.

For a laugh I looked up to see if I could find anything on it vis a vis Canada and all I found was a Public Works solicitation for disposal by demilitarization from 2014 that listed three propelling charges for M67 HEAT, just charges, no projectiles

No, this was in Shilo (I assume) and it was against steel plate targets, angled a various degrees off normal.

 

[AmmoTech90]

For a laugh I looked up to see if I could find anything on it vis a vis Canada and all I found was a Public Works solicitation for disposal by demilitarization from 2014 that listed three propelling charges for M67 HEAT, just charges, no projectiles

That's because we can dispose of the projectiles internally by detonation. Burning large quantities of propellant (or SAA) is now problematic because we have no disposal facilities that can handle truely large quantities of prop and any quantity of SAA without contamination concerns.
In the past I did prop burns that stretched over 100ft in Meaford, and that was just one of 4 DPs that were going at the same time. We would just work out way up the battle run all day. Now there are small burning tables that really restrict the quantities you can do per day.
I got tested for lead content after a week's SAA burning. I was well over that of an average welder. Something had to be done, but GoC process got involved and, to my knowledge, it was too hard establish an internal disposal facility so we've contracted it out.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That's because we can dispose of the projectiles internally by detonation. Burning large quantities of propellant (or SAA) is now problematic because we have no disposal facilities that can handle truely large quantities of prop and any quantity of SAA without contamination concerns.
In the past I did prop burns that stretched over 100ft in Meaford, and that was just one of 4 DPs that were going at the same time. We would just work out way up the battle run all day. Now there are small burning tables that really restrict the quantities you can do per day.
I got tested for lead content after a week's SAA burning. I was well over that of an average welder. Something had to be done, but GoC process got involved and, to my knowledge, it was too hard establish an internal disposal facility so we've contracted it out.

Oh boy, do I have stories to tell about that…

 

[AmmoTech90]

Oh boy, do I have stories to tell about that…

On behalf of my former trade I want to apologize for the person running that shitshow.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Let me guess, it concerns a Winnipeg scrap yard?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Let me guess, it concerns a Winnipeg scrap yard?

That was firmly before my time…thankfully.

I was riffing off of the difficulty of incinerating SAA in DND, when it requires disposal.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

On behalf of my former trade I want to apologize for the person running that shitshow.

I have met good ATOs and some…not so good ATOs…

 

[AmmoTech90]

Let me guess, it concerns a Winnipeg scrap yard?

Spent a month and half there. We filled over 100 triwalls with munitions scrap and found some live. Back breaking work. The piles of PCB filled and leaking transformers were a bonus.
Got to stay at the Lombard hotel, that was nice. The Sunday brunch was great and we would run back from the yard and the concierge would greet us with water and towels.

 

[FJAG]

You're bringing back memories of representing the FRG at the Fatalities Inquiry at the second one of those. I could understand the first incident. The fact that by the time of the second that none of the principle characters involved even knew that a first one had happened, notwithstanding a previous Board of Inquiry and a previous Fatalities Inquiry, always baffled me.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The problem with corporate memory is that it seldom lasts as long as the entity that it is supposed to serve.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Spent a month and half there. We filled over 100 triwalls with munitions scrap and found some live. Back breaking work. The piles of PCB filled and leaking transformers were a bonus.
Got to stay at the Lombard hotel, that was nice. The Sunday brunch was great and we would run back from the yard and the concierge would greet us with water and towels.

Great Hotel a great brunch almost as good as the Hotel Fort Garry.

 

[FJAG]

The problem with corporate memory is that it seldom lasts as long as the entity that it is supposed to serve.

I think you need to trademark or copyright that.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I think you need to trademark or copyright that.

Probably, I used to have a huuuuhgggeeeee list went on for a couple of pages that I called Dundas's laws.
I should see if I can find it.

 

[KevinB]

TBFH, I fail to understand how the CAF cannot expend munitions before their ‘best before’ date.
Albeit I’ve been on some ranges that had some very questionable ordnance.
Nothing like rusty M67 Grenades, some so rusted that the shell was compromised.
We threw them anyway…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The problem with corporate memory is that it seldom lasts as long as the entity that it is supposed to serve.

Unfortunately, the “dumb” corporate memory (“we have always done things this way”) has the half life of plutonium.

The “smart” corporate memory (the stuff the keeps people alive) seems to last as long as a ripe banana…

 

[dapaterson]

Unfortunately, the “dumb” corporate memory (“we have always done things this way”) has the half life of plutonium.

The “smart” corporate memory (the stuff the keeps people alive) seems to last as long as a ripe banana…

That is, when the smart information isn't buried and hidden to prevent embarrassment.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

TBFH, I fail to understand how the CAF cannot expend munitions before their ‘best before’ date.
Albeit I’ve been on some ranges that had some very questionable ordnance.
Nothing like rusty M67 Grenades, some so rusted that the shell was compromised.
We threw them anyway…

In theory, we should.

Sometimes, things get away from us.

When we retired the AVGP Cougars we took almost 35,000 rds of 76mm to bed. It would have been wayyy cheaper to fire it all, instead of demilling it. The problem was the turret rings were so cracked on most of the hulls, it would have been unsafe to shoot that much.

There were literally thousands of 2.75 inch rocket motors (pre-dating even CRV-7s) that never got fired, for….reasons.

Most of the common stuff does get fired before it goes bad. But, there is still a non zero amount of ammo that gets damaged or malfunctions and has to have a destruction path.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That is, when the smart information isn't buried and hidden to prevent embarrassment.

What, you mean like ship fire BOIs?

 

[MJP]

On behalf of my former trade I want to apologize for the person running that shitshow.

LOL the Ammo & ATO trade being so small means any dud stands out. Happily have dealt with more good than bad!

TBFH, I fail to understand how the CAF cannot expend munitions before their ‘best before’ date.
Albeit I’ve been on some ranges that had some very questionable ordnance.
Nothing like rusty M67 Grenades, some so rusted that the shell was compromised.
We threw them anyway…

.50 range in 2004 before going on Athena comes to mind....some that stuff was 1960s IIRC. At least our 60mm ammo was newer