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C3 Howitzer Replacement

Fair enough! I'll maybe do some digging when I get a free moment.
If you looked around for Artillery transformation, or artillery projects you’d probably find it.


All this said we need new guns, I’m pro 155 but not pro M777 (they aren’t supposed to be fired below -30 and ignoring that has caused issues). Probably we need something like m109s (my preference based on minimal artillery knowledge), Archer, or Caesar and in the 150 unit range to fill out 2 x 18 gun regular regiments (36), the school (6), ops stock (18), spares (18), and the at least 3 proper regiments from the reserves (54). That will likely require centralizing locations of Artillery pieces for the reserves close to training areas (Edmonton, Shilo, Moncton, Quebec City) and using sims / alternate training schedules for more spread out folks. I don’t think, however, that just because Johnny lives in Kenora he should have to be a gunner if he wants to be a reservist, however that’s a seperate debate.
 
If you looked around for Artillery transformation, or artillery projects you’d probably find it.


All this said we need new guns, I’m pro 155 but not pro M777 (they aren’t supposed to be fired below -30 and ignoring that has caused issues).
Keep them for one light brigade. Maybe a four-battery regiment.
Probably we need something like m109s (my preference based on minimal artillery knowledge)
Needs an L52 or better barrel. That's not in production yet.
, Archer,
Happy with that if we get a good ammo limber system set up.
or Caesar
No - good gun but not armoured - crew works exposed.
and in the 150 unit range to fill out 2 x 18 gun regular regiments (36), the school (6), ops stock (18), spares (18), and the at least 3 proper regiments from the reserves (54).
Numbers that I can live with - not sure about the government.
That will likely require centralizing locations of Artillery pieces for the reserves close to training areas (Edmonton, Shilo, Moncton, Quebec City) and using sims / alternate training schedules for more spread out folks.
Depends on whether they are tracked or not. Convoy driving an Archer battery from Toronto to Meaford is a very useful training exercise in its own right.
I don’t think, however, that just because Johnny lives in Kenora he should have to be a gunner if he wants to be a reservist, however that’s a seperate debate.
Yeah. There needs to be some adjustment. Kenora is a good example. There are others. I'm a fan of units which have subunits distributed in outpost but they need to have a good recruiting base and need to be reasonably close - a couple of hours at most. I really don't care if they are near a base with a range or not as long as they have sufficient training equipment and the CA can convince the RCAF to use their shiny new CC330s to fly folks there. Latvia would be a good place for two-week summer concentrations on prepositioned equipment. ;)

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Keep them for one light brigade. Maybe a four-battery regiment.

Needs an L52 or better barrel. That's not in production yet.

Happy with that if we get a good ammo limber system set up.

No - good gun but not armoured - crew works exposed.

Numbers that I can live with - not sure about the government.

Depends on whether they are tracked or not. Convoy driving an Archer battery from Toronto to Meaford is a very useful training exercise in its own right.

Yeah. There needs to be some adjustment. Kenora is a good example. There are others. I'm a fan of units which have subunits distributed in outpost but they need to have a good recruiting base and need to be reasonably close - a couple of hours at most. I really don't care if they are near a base with a range or not as long as they have sufficient training equipment and the CA can convince the RCAF to use their shiny new CC330s to fly folks there. Latvia would be a good place for two-week summer concentrations on prepositioned equipment. ;)

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Why is there a persistent belief that the RCAF won’t fly troops around?

If unit/bde staffs do the RFE form (2 pages, online on the DWAN) and email it to the “plus” account on the form, it gets considered. I’ve filled out dozens and had excellent success.
 
The long term intent is that with a structure in place, over time, equipment can be acquired to arm the whole force. For example, if an IFV is acquired for the 1 Div units then the equivalent of 4 bns worth of LAVs can be transferred to 2 Div to flesh out their ResF companies. Similalry for artillery, if SPs are purchased for 1 Div then a dozen or so M777s can be transferred to 2 Div.

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I'd rather see a 2 - 2 - 2 Bde Structure
2 Heavy: Armored Brigades with MBT, Heavy IFV Tracked, M109A7 etc
2 Medium: LAV - splitting them between 1 and 2 Div, which eats up basically all the LAV Canada has now anyway, and still needs new variants anyway.
2 Light:
I don't put the Arty into the Bde's but hold as a Div asset each with an Arty Bde, plus a 3rd Bde as a Corps asset that can be allocated as needed.





I see a requirement for 30/70 and 70/30 mixes in the Bde's

Roto 0's to me would be conducted by a Light or LAV Bde as applicable with the Heavy Bde's being earmarked for Europe (and Ideally one predeployed) - most of the Heavy Bde Arty would be 70/30 or higher - while the LAV and Light Bde's would be primarily 30/70 as the expectation that they would be need immediately be less than the Infantry portion.


Regardless I think that the CA needs more M777's,
I don't see the M119 as just a training gun, I see it as a gun we know the Reserves can easily use and will not strain the support ecosystem. It may not be the most viable system, but it's not just a training gun.
Sure they can use it, but they can also easily use a M109, M777 or HIMARS.
When I went to Gagetown in 1988 for a summer tasking, I was shocked at how many of the local RCA units had M109 qualified personnel - one of the Det commanders pointed out that it was similar to those of us from Ont getting L-5 experience, as they where local and had ease to get to them and the training area.

What may need to occur is that units get roles that fit their geographical positioning - so units close to Gagetown, Suffield, Shilo and Wainright get M109's that are stored at those facilities.

M777 and HIMARS are much easier to move.

The number I mentioned was to give us some form of war stock, because it's clear a war like Ukraine will burn through all the guns we have in short order. You need the guns you want and the ones I want to have any depth and war stocks.
155mm production is surging - but also at the expense of 105 production - no one is investing into new 105mm plants - so getting a slew of training guns that won't have an ammo op stock in a few years is just throwing good money after bad.


As far as personal goes, it's a wonder anybody bothers to show up at all. The government and the senior leaders have made it clear there is no one is giving a shit about the Reserve artillery. So people read the tea leaves and walk. With the looming cuts that are coming, I have absolute faith that any plan to bolster Reserve artillery is going into the bin as it is not sexy/important enough. In fact the only hope I can see is if SK offers to provide us with some refurbished M101's to sweeten a KS-III sub buy.
I am jaded, I don't have any faith whatsoever. I dearly hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
M101's are not going to do anything for the CA, you'd be better off with a 120mm Mortar at that point.

Every armory should have simulation centers - ideally that are networked into a lager framework to allow guns, rockets, tanks and IFV's to operate both separately for Individual Training, but in unison as well for collective Bde training (and higher).
 
I'd rather see a 2 - 2 - 2 Bde Structure
2 Heavy: Armored Brigades with MBT, Heavy IFV Tracked, M109A7 etc
2 Medium: LAV - splitting them between 1 and 2 Div, which eats up basically all the LAV Canada has now anyway, and still needs new variants anyway.
I gave that a lot of thought because of the structure of the new US Armoured Divs (2 x ABCT, 1 x SBCT). While my cynicism tells me that this is because they have these SBCTs that they don't like but can't convert easily I also thought about the practicality of having an infantry heavy brigade in the div to use in complex terrain when infantry is really the answer.

I stayed with a 3 armoured bde concept because one could easily break 1 CMBG into three parts; you probably need three such bdes to properly generate 2 for deployment, and you can always add a medium bde in from 2 Div. There are also geographic considerations in that.
Indirectly that's in the 2 Div structure. While 2 CLBG in Pet is the quick reaction force, I've also formed two light "regiments" one on each coast for defence of coastal regions. They are each bigger than a battle group but because of their separation are impractical to group into a single brigade. I actually envision 2 CLBG's role to be the third part of that coastal force as they are designed to fill in the arctic area and reinforce the left and right coasts as needed. I really do not see them as an expeditionary element at all. I leave that to 1 Div. 34 CMBG (typo in the diagram) and 5 CMBG available to a) reinforce 1 Div as required; b) reinforce operations within Canada; and c) do whatever else needs doing.
I don't put the Arty into the Bde's but hold as a Div asset each with an Arty Bde, plus a 3rd Bde as a Corps asset that can be allocated as needed.

I see a requirement for 30/70 and 70/30 mixes in the Bde's
Yup
Roto 0's to me would be conducted by a Light or LAV Bde as applicable with the Heavy Bde's being earmarked for Europe (and Ideally one predeployed)
I see no Roto 0s except for very small missions such as Haiti and the like. A "contractual NATO" bde in Latvia is it for a mission and its not a Roto 0. Its a standing force with predeployed equipment and a small rotational force and a flyover component. That needs constant maintenance and a constant commitment. It basically eats up several of the SSE missions (together with RCAF and RCN missions) and leaves very little else available.
- most of the Heavy Bde Arty would be 70/30 or higher - while the LAV and Light Bde's would be primarily 30/70 as the expectation that they would be need immediately be less than the Infantry portion.
All arty can be 30/70. It's only needed for major combat. It's basically a force in waiting. Latvia e.g. could easily be a 1 bty posted in (or rotational) and the remaining batteries (if any - right now they are multinational) could be flyover with a rapid reaction RegF and RegF/ResF merged as sustainment. There are enough RegF batteries in the napkin establishment to fill a 100/0 RegF CS regiment. If we're sending a div then we're at war anyway and everyone is all in.
Regardless I think that the CA needs more M777's,
Lets start with Canada has 33 M777s. Lets put 3 at the RCAS and 6 prepositioned in Latvia which leaves 24 distributed in 6 batteries of four. My napkin force has six CS regiments each with one equipped RegF battery which are available for training of both RegF and ResF gunners in each regiment.

Assume that Canada gets 155mm SPs for Latvia. Regardless of the number of guns made available, the guns in Latvia come home and are replaced by 6 x SPs. Similarly all the 1 Div guns are replaced by SPs (You'd need a minimum of 12 to replace them one for one but more would be much better of course. In any event you now have 30 x M777s available within 2 Div. That equips the three RegF batteries with 6 guns each with 12 spare for operational deployment elsewhere. That's enough to keep the shared RegF/ResF training model going at a better rate than previously.

The question is: how to proceed to up the scale to make the whole division's artillery operational?

I'd go in the following direction. Arm the regiment associated with 2 CLBG with at least 24 x M777 (and maybe a OWUAV battery). These support not only 2 CLBG but also 38 and 39 CIRegts on the coast. Then decide as to how you want to arm the two mech bdes. I would go with SPs same as for 1 Div which then leaves 6 x M777 spare. If the decision goes against SPs them either redistribute the 30 x M777s amongst the three 2 Div arty regts then a) buy another 24 x M777 and equip all nine batteries with 6 guns each; or b) buy another 6 x M777s and equip each battery with 4 guns; or c) buy another 6 x M777 and equip each regiment with 2 x 6-gun M777 batteries and one OWUAV launcher battery; or d) buy no other M777s and equip 5 batteries with 6 x M777 and 4 batteries with launchers and distribute as seems best. Other combinations work as well.

The issue here Kevin is the "deployability of 2 Div. Obviously you desire to see 2 Div as a deployable entity. In that case only the purchase of either 36 SPs or 24 M777 would do to bring each CS regiment up to 18 guns each. I frankly do not see a case being made to have 2 Div deploy as a full entity. Two deployable divs would require a massive increase in both RegF and ResF personnel and equipment strength to create the force generation and sustainment base necessary to support two deployed divisions. I can't see that happening in peacetime. Yes, I can see elements of 2 Div deploying with 1 Div but essentially we're limited to one division that can conceivably be deployed overseas (and believe me a lot of the RegF guys on this forum are already rolling their eyes when I suggest that Canada could deploy a full division). The other division, being designed for fragmented individual BG or possibly limited bde missions can do with a scalable arty structure something along the lines of what we have.

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Honestly I think Canada should have a Corps, but I’m not a Cdn Taxpayer anymore.

I’d plunk an Arty Bde in Europe along with an Armored Bde - I don’t consider Europe a Roto 0 either, but the main effort of the CA.

I see the need for a Second Division being deployable solely as a security blanket to push out if the world goes to hell somewhere else. Not likely as a whole DIV effort but a Bde and allies.

Ukraine should be a reminder to all that having more artillery is never a bad decision. Worse case you can use them as fake Infantry for Cyprus like situations.
 
How about a "dumb" 155mm for the reserves, like the M-71 or KH179, something to qualify gunners on 155 while still being usable overseas, and can procured comparatively quicker and in larger numbers than the M777.
 
How about a "dumb" 155mm for the reserves, like the M-71 or KH179, something to qualify gunners on 155 while still being usable overseas, and can procured comparatively quicker and in larger numbers than the M777.
Why add more logistical burden to our already overstretched supply and maintenance system by adding new, lesser platforms. Reservists in Canada once upon a time used to be able to field tank squadrons (and sometimes regiments), full batteries of arty, Lynx C&R vehicles, etc. Those arty fellas in the MO can figure out an M777.
 
How about a "dumb" 155mm for the reserves, like the M-71 or KH179, something to qualify gunners on 155 while still being usable overseas, and can procured comparatively quicker and in larger numbers than the M777.
The M-198 enters the chat...
 
Why not (allowing for the obvious of cost) CAESAR for the reserves?

PRes already has trucks, the whole discussion is based on the premise the PRes getting modern guns- why not merge them and come out with a deployable peer/near peer capability?

RegF Arty scales down gun line PY's into a smaller number of "boutique" systems at either end of the spectrum for high readiness - a tracked SP, and M777, to shift focus to more skill intensive/ difficult career progression PY needs, with the reserves providing a mass of SP gun batteries in a combat proven modern system.

Am I completely out to lunch, or is the arty the one area of the Army where equipment and training could be parachuted into the current situation and deployable gun, AD, and rocket troops (if not batteries) come out the other end?
 
We used to have reserve arty batteries with 155mm. My WO said they called it "The pig"

60f316f47f1fd7566fbbf66a_Howitzer--Medium--Towed--155-mm--C1--SIL--3-of-3--Edmonton-Garrison.jpeg
 
We used to have reserve arty batteries with 155mm. My WO said they called it "The pig"

60f316f47f1fd7566fbbf66a_Howitzer--Medium--Towed--155-mm--C1--SIL--3-of-3--Edmonton-Garrison.jpeg
The 198 would say hold my beer.

Somewhere I have a picture of one that thundered in on a drop in Bragg.

But this shall have to do until I can find that.

IMG_1455.jpeg
 
Maybe somebody at Hanwha is reading our forum...


Truck mounting the same turret as the K9A2 Thunder (which has a 52 caliber gun).

  • Tracked K9A2 for the Armoured Brigades
  • Wheeled K9A2 for the LAV Brigades
  • M777 for the Light Brigades

No mixing of 105mm and 155mm systems. Common turret simplifies logistics and training.
 
We used to have reserve arty batteries with 155mm. My WO said they called it "The pig"

60f316f47f1fd7566fbbf66a_Howitzer--Medium--Towed--155-mm--C1--SIL--3-of-3--Edmonton-Garrison.jpeg
That was the M1A1 155mm which was a WW2 era gun that was in service in Canada from 1956 to 1968. It generally (but not exclusively) formed the GS battery in several of the RegF regiments which used the 105mm M2A1 (on carriage M2A2 aka C1 in Canada and now the M101 in the US) for the three CS batteries. It also formed the main gun of several ResF medium regiments. I joined 7 Tor in 1965 when it had just become a fd regiment as an amalgamation of 29 Fd Regt, 42 Med Regt and 1 Loc regt. In Canadian service the M1A1 was replaced by the M109.

In US service it was later redesignated the M114. It was in US service throughout Vietnam and afterwards when replaced by the M198 in 1979.

One of the main things about the more modern guns is not only are there changes to the system itself but they are generally designed to accept more modern ammunitions (longer ranges equal higher chamber pressures to adjust for), more digital equipment to allow self locating and orientation which allow individual guns to deploy, if desired, and systems such as muzzle velocity measuring devices which communicate with the fires computation systems to increase accuracy. The thing about the M777 is that it is a highly accurate gun.

There is no reason that a 105mm can't be digitized. The Brit L118 for example is as is the S Korean truck mounted M101 under the designation K105A1. Besides speeding up firing data transmission and reducing data transfer errors, digitization also speeds up the coming into action time.

There are numerous options for modern guns in the 155mm calibre but like everything, there are trade-offs. Cost figures in. So does the maintenance of the technological systems and the ordnance itself. Range is mostly a factor of barrel length. Then there is mobility, protection of the detachment, size of the detachment and the ammunition limber and trains system.

Training is generally transferable from system to system with some short conversion training especially if the digitization and ammo calibre of the training gun is the same as the war gun. There is a difference in rounds, some fuzes and propellant systems as between 105mm and even between some 155mm. Some of the more complex rounds need very modern guns to fire.

The issue isn't so much as to whether I can train a troop on one gun and convert it to another. Yes I can. The issues are more subtle having to do with sustainment of the systems. The big question for me is: can I take the system to war? If the answer is no, it's just an initial training system, then I say: why bother? If the war gun costs 3 x what the non war training gun costs then I'll take the 1/3 war guns every time. I'll compromise on how many I have for training as 1) I can avoid conversion and compensate for the lower number through good organization and shift wotk if necessary, but 2) I'll end up with more guns that I can take to war or replace casualties with.

IMHO, Canada needs two types of guns and two types of guns only: the M777s and a new 155mm SP in L52 or better calibre. Over and above the guns we need LRPF systems and OWUAS loitering munitions for fires support. Add in new and improved STA, a solid digitized command and control system, properly structured arty tac gps (the FSVV/FOO/JTAC type not that informal grouping of ResF regiments) and a solid AD system. Luckily all of this is being worked on and some is even funded. There are leading roles for the ResF in all of those if we're bold enough.

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Maybe somebody at Hanwha is reading our forum...


Truck mounting the same turret as the K9A2 Thunder (which has a 52 caliber gun).

  • Tracked K9A2 for the Armoured Brigades
  • Wheeled K9A2 for the LAV Brigades
  • M777 for the Light Brigades

No mixing of 105mm and 155mm systems. Common turret simplifies logistics and training.
Interesting.

Wonder how flexible they would about the Truck host.
 
Interesting.

Wonder how flexible they would about the Truck host.
From the article:
The turret is modular, allowing it to be mounted on various platforms to meet different customer requirements.
Another interesting tidbit:
Future configurations might include the longer 58-caliber gun, capable of hitting targets over 70 kilometers away with guided munitions.
 
I have a question that may have been answered.

Is the 105 really required? I'm infantry (retired so no I am NOT going on winter indoc) so as long as there is fire sp, does it matter what it comes from?
 
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