C3 Howitzer Replacement

[OldSolduer]

OK someone refresh my memory. Why did we divest ourselves of the M 109?

 

[GK .Dundas]

OK someone refresh my memory. Why did we divest ourselves of the M 109?

$$$

 

[OldSolduer]

$$$

What was the reasoning the big boys used?

 

[KevinB]

OK someone refresh my memory. Why did we divest ourselves of the M 109?

Exceptional stupidity. The sort of that that saw the C-16 adopted as a replacement to the 60mm Mortar.

 

[OldSolduer]

Exceptional stupidity. The sort of that that saw the C-16 adopted as a replacement to the 60mm Mortar.

Oh I absolutely adore you!! My podcast says the same thing - or it will when I record it. Especially about the C 16

 

[FJAG]

OK someone refresh my memory. Why did we divest ourselves of the M 109?

Boy! Don't get me started. It was part of the big mech divestment. Post years of Bosnia type missions where artillery (in the form of LG1s) had only a tiny role. A religious-level furor in rapid deployment medium weight forces (LAV and Stryker). A belief that ISTAR and an interconnected networked precision system would do it all. The effects of the precision airstrikes and attack helicopters during Gulf 1 carried a lot of influence. People seem to have forgotten the effects of VII Corps artillery in wiping the Iraqi artillery off the map. But the costs of big mech (Leo C2, M109, M113 fleet) was causing heavy pressure on the army.

What particulalry galls me is that when the army decided that the M109s be divested, there was nothing in the inventory other than the 105mm LG1s and C3s and the clear understanding that the replacement indirect fire systems (which were envisioned to be something in the nature of the nascent Archer, were at least ten years down the road. We also knew about the M777 development but those wouldn't even be in low rate production for a few more years when the decision was made and they were all earmarked for the US Marines and Army to replace the M198s.

 

[OldSolduer]

Boy! Don't get me started. It was part of the big mech divestment. Post years of Bosnia type missions where artillery (in the form of LG1s) had only a tiny role. A religious-level furor in rapid deployment medium weight forces (LAV and Stryker). A belief that ISTAR and an interconnected networked precision system would do it all. The effects of the precision airstrikes and attack helicopters during Gulf 1 carried a lot of influence. People seem to have forgotten the effects of VII Corps artillery in wiping the Iraqi artillery off the map. But the costs of big mech (Leo C2, M109, M113 fleet) was causing heavy pressure on the army.

What particulalry galls me is that when the army decided that the M109s be divested, there was nothing in the inventory other than the 105mm LG1s and C3s and the clear understanding that the replacement indirect fire systems (which were envisioned to be something in the nature of the nascent Archer, were at least ten years down the road. We also knew about the M777 development but those wouldn't even be in low rate production for a few more years when the decision was made and they were all earmarked for the US Marines and Army to replace the M198s.

Thank you. You will receive a big shout out on my pod. And Kevin and GK too.

Were the 109s cut up like I heard?

 

[ytz]

Pardon me if I snicker. You don’t have enough air movement capability to move much more than a LAV Coy.

And there's no policy at all that says we should. Does anybody other than the US really plan on air lifting armoured brigades? Yes, we're not the US. We know. Do you have any other material?

The DIV was not viewed as a needed maneuver unit during GWOT. But now back to Corps exercises here.

They are barely back to really training whole divisions. Which means proportionally, we should be back to exercising whole brigades. I don't think there's any real expectation for Canada to provide an entire Div. Nor any actual standing policy that I've come across that says so.

CP Ex’s ignore all friction points. While a supplement, they are not a replacement for actually physically doing to task.

Which reinforces my point that we don't really do Div stuff anymore. And simply calling something a Division doesn't mean we have that capability. Should we? Maybe. But until we actually fill those 15 000 empty seats, there will be no interest in even beginning to discuss division sized forces.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And there's no policy at all that says we should. Does anybody other than the US really plan on air lifting armoured brigades? Yes, we're not the US. We know. Do you have any other material?



They are barely back to really training whole divisions. Which means proportionally, we should be back to exercising whole brigades. I don't think there's any real expectation for Canada to provide an entire Div. Nor any actual standing policy that I've come across that says so.



Which reinforces my point that we don't really do Div stuff anymore. And simply calling something a Division doesn't mean we have that capability. Should we? Maybe. But until we actually fill those 15 000 empty seats, there will be no interest in even beginning to discuss division sized forces.

Things are changing pretty fast these days, we'd be smart to be ready for that possibility...

 

[FJAG]

Thank you. You will receive a big shout out on my pod. And Kevin and GK too.

Were the 109s cut up like I heard?

Some were.





When ADM(Mat) found out what the army had made happen he put a stop to it and he and several senior gunners arranged for most of them to be turned into memorials across the country.

Somewhere I have a list of what happened to each and every one of them but can't put my finger on it at the moment.

 

[RangerRay]

Were the 109s cut up like I heard?

I saw one loaded on a transport headed west on the Trans Canada west of Shilo a few months ago. The kids were impressed.

 

[ytz]

Things are changing pretty fast these days, we'd be smart to be ready for that possibility...

Not wrong. But those are much wider questions than anybody in a procurement project is going to address.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Some were.

View attachment 91445
View attachment 91446
View attachment 91447

When ADM(Mat) found out what the army had made happen he put a stop to it and he and several senior gunners arranged for most of them to be turned into memorials across the country.

Somewhere I have a list of what happened to each and every one of them but can't put my finger on it at the moment.

There is one behind the Kingston Military Community and Sports Complex, in-between the Constantine Arena and the Applied Military Science building for RMC.

I'll snap a picutre the next time I'm down that way.

 

[Maxman1]

With the current US approach to the world, Canada offering to build up a brigade in Europe makes both military and political sense. I suspect that Latvia is to constrained for a long term larger deployment and either Germany or Poland would be the best place to locate.

Reopen CFB Lahr and Baden-Solingen.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My concern is other than Dear Leader 47, the world seems to understand it is at a tipping point, Europe seems to have reluctantly awoken to the Bear - and there most likely will be a catastrophic global war - unless Russia (and China) are deterred by credible forces.

The CA used to conduct Divisional training - I was at the last one when I was still a Gunner before becoming a Patricia - it is not just the forces getting together (as that is generally pretty boring for the troops for the majority of the time) but the logistics of getting everything to one place, and supporting the exercise that is a skill in its own - and redeploying them home after. It is not just skill for the General, Col's and Staff - but all the moving pieces working together.

If you don't have a capability, you realistically aren't training to employ it - you are theorizing on how it may work.

My exposure to this was working to move 2CMBG from Pet to Fort Irwin CA vial rail head and Air, and back. I was just a killick storesman at the time, but It was in impressive undertaking, and to see it work was fascinating. Sadly, I believe I was told on here the rail head at Pet is gone.

Pardon me if I snicker. You don’t have enough air movement capability to move much more than a LAV Coy.

Its amazing how many people do not understand this. And its also amazing how many people think what we do have is just sitting around waiting for a call. Booking a C17 is being done year(s) in advance. You cant just call up the RCAF and have them whip one out.

Air and Sea lift is a place we should be investing.

 

[PrairieFella]

Its amazing how many people do not understand this. And its also amazing how many people think what we do have is just sitting around waiting for a call. Booking a C17 is being done year(s) in advance. You cant just call up the RCAF and have them whip one out.

Air and Sea lift is a place we should be investing.

That said, I'm sure the CDS would suggest they find the time if a flyover bn was needed haha.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That said, I'm sure the CDS would suggest they find the time if a flyover bn was needed haha.

I'm sure in a break glass scenario priorities will be adjusted. But the BG in Latvia is not the CAFs only deployed assets that required air lift support.

 

[Kirkhill]

What's interesting to me with potential MLRS systems that can launch BMs or CMs is this:

The HIMARS can pack two PRSMs that can reach out 500 km and touch someone. Entirely possible to create even longer range weapons. That is not just a tactical asset to support a brigade anymore.

That AO suggests that each HIMARS/MLRS regiment needs to be associated with something like a Special Forces "spotter" element. The USMC/USN has/had their ANGLICO teams. The Brits now seem to be leveraging their experience with long range FOO teams (reserve Special Forces units like 21 and 23 SAS and the HAC used to have that as an assignment - I think 5 Regiment Royal Artillery still does something of the sort) Not all spotting can be managed by UAVs and satellites.

 

[KevinB]

That AO suggests that each HIMARS/MLRS regiment needs to be associated with something like a Special Forces "spotter" element. The USMC/USN has/had their ANGLICO teams. The Brits now seem to be leveraging their experience with long range FOO teams (reserve Special Forces units like 21 and 23 SAS and the HAC used to have that as an assignment - I think 5 Regiment Royal Artillery still does something of the sort) Not all spotting can be managed by UAVs and satellites.

That gets into SR missions, and “layback” patrols, that require deep understanding of the AO, partisan support and language skills.

IMHO you can get better results with GeoSpacial assets for anything but time sensitive targets.

 

[suffolkowner]

interesting with all the attention wheeled SPH have been getting i took a look at NATO Europe numbers and tracked still dominates. If you include Greece and Turkey its 2 to 1