Cadet Officers

[Harris]

All,
This argument has been going on for some time. Let me clarify it for those of you who seem to be having some problems understanding.

Anyone, be it Reg Force, Pri Reserve, or CIC who has been comissioned is in fact an Officer and entitled to all the rights, privledges and responsibilities that go with it.

They are all to be saluted and they all have the authority given to them by their rank. How they got that rank has nothing to do with it. Unfortunately in all 3 organizations there are people wearing bars who never should have.

Arguing about CIC vs Pri Reserve vs Reg Force is just as bad as arguing Combat Arms vs Non-combat arms Officers.

The final line is that an Officer is an Officer. You don‘t have to respect that Officer, but you do have to obey lawful commands given by that Officer no matter how they got to be an Officer. When you salute an Officer you are saluting the Queens Comission, not the individual. Hopefully given time and effort on their part, they will earn respect from those they command.

Cheers

 

[Infanteer]

As a CIC officer yes we hold the Queens Commission.The BOQ lasts for 8 days or so then your MOC course or maybe JOLC for 17 straight days At Base Borden now being held AT CRPTC here in Ottawa. CIC Officers are a differnet kind of breed. As a cadet unit Co you get 33 days paid but you might do over 150 days during the Training year.All other officers in the unit will get 23 days pay.Lots of CIC officers are Ex Reg force or P Res and parents who get roped in and like what we do for canadian Youth. the CIC is a sub comp of the P Res.Education is not a big thing all you need is your Grade 12 But many Officer have Univercity Degrees. Now dropping in rank to go to the P Res Or even Reg Force yes you might drop in rank but many time I have seen CIC officers who have the education go direct tranfer and still go on there Phase Trg and still keep their rank. If your a cadet you might think that we as CIC are not real officers in the Canadian Forces ask one of your Officers if you can read there commissioning scroll.

Whew, sounds tough, are they just giving away the Queen‘s Commission now?
I think I would have a harder time finding one on EBay.

Anyone, be it Reg Force, Pri Reserve, or CIC who has been comissioned is in fact an Officer and entitled to all the rights, privledges and responsibilities that go with it.

They are all to be saluted and they all have the authority given to them by their rank. How they got that rank has nothing to do with it. Unfortunately in all 3 organizations there are people wearing bars who never should have.

Arguing about CIC vs Pri Reserve vs Reg Force is just as bad as arguing Combat Arms vs Non-combat arms Officers.

The final line is that an Officer is an Officer. You don‘t have to respect that Officer, but you do have to obey lawful commands given by that Officer no matter how they got to be an Officer. When you salute an Officer you are saluting the Queens Comission, not the individual. Hopefully given time and effort on their part, they will earn respect from those they command.

Find me the section in the Regulations that says a Cadet Officer has any legal authority over me. Then, find anyone in the military who would back a cadet officer over any of his troops on a decision.

Here is where the word "technical" comes in. Remember, respect is something earned, and to me eight days and an additude just don‘t cut it.

 

[fusilier955]

well put Infanteer.

 

[Vigilant]

Thank God for the Chain of Command.

I wouldn‘t want to take orders from a CIC Officer.

 

[primer]

The final line is that an Officer is an Officer. You don‘t have to respect that Officer, but you do have to obey lawful commands given by that Officer no matter how they got to be an Officer. When you salute an Officer you are saluting the Queens Comission, not the individual. Hopefully given time and effort on their part, they will earn respect from those they command.

Thats all that needs to be said

Ruck up and Soldier on

 

[primer]

Thanks to Harris for the quote.

Ruck up and Soldier on

 

[Jason Jarvis]

Well, I went and stirred things up in the wardroom section of Cadetworld.com, an instructors-only forum on the site. I don‘t know if you can click through via this link:

http://cadetworld.com/cwforums/showthread.php?t=19250&page=1&pp=25

but if you can I think their comments would do quite a lot to improve some attitudes towards the CIC.

These folks are part of the 15% who are dedicated professionals and who have the experience and wisdom that the CIC needs right now. They understand some of the reservations the PRes and RegF have about cadets and "cadet officers", and work d*mn hard to be the best officers they can be.

 

[primer]

15% if we are lucky. We few dont do it for the monie.We do it for the Youth and the future of our great nation.

Ruck up and Soldier on

 

[combat_medic]

Primer: CIC officers have NO jurisdiction within the PRes or Reg Force, and therefore EVERY SINGLE COMMAND would be unlawful. The moment a CIC officer gives a command outside of the cadet world, it is an unlawful command. The only exception to this would be when a PRes or Reg soldier is posted or attached to a cadet unit.

8 days in CIC world = 2Lt
10 weeks in PRes = untrained Pte

...I would rather be following the Pte.

 

[Excolis]

a commission is a commission. sure they might be trained different (PRes/CIC) but they are all the same when it comes down to the scroll. i really get pissy when i hear all you PRes talking down to CIC. it is because of you we have problems, and in response to an earlier comment, i know plenty of PRes that would follow the command of CIC, before PRes.

 

[xFusilier]

CIC officers have NO jurisdiction within the PRes or Reg Force, and therefore EVERY SINGLE COMMAND would be unlawful. The moment a CIC officer gives a command outside of the cadet world, it is an unlawful command. The only exception to this would be when a PRes or Reg soldier is posted or attached to a cadet unit.

Wrong,

From a strictly legal and I say again legal standpoint, by whoch I am not going to enter into the arena of military curteousy:

Section 83 of the National Defence Act places an onus on all soldiers to obey all lawful commands given by superior officers. s.19.015(B)QR&O‘s clearly articulates when a soldier is justified in disobeying a command:

In a situation, however, where the subordinate does not know the law or is uncertain of it he shall, even though he doubts the lawfulness of the command, obey unless the command is manifestly unlawful.

To further clarify, s.1.02 QR&O defines "superior officer" as

any officer or non-commissioned member who, in relation to any other officer or non-commissioned member, is by the National Defence Act, or by regulations or custom of the service, authorized to give a lawful command to that other officer or non-commissioned member;

So to put it practically:

You are standing around the back of the armouries on a parade night having a smoke, and In walks 2Lt Half-Trained of the CIC. Mr. Half-Trained says "Cpl. Bloggins empty that butt can".

The law says, the man holds the Queens Commision (ie. he has a lovely sutible for framing, document hanging on his "I love me" wall in the den making him a trusty friend of Her Majesty) he is therefore under the customs and traditions of the service authorized to give a lawful command. Mr. Half-Trained did not ask you to break the law or commit an act that you believe to be manifestly unlawful (ie. "hey, Cpl go take your C-9 go knock over the 7-11 and bring me back some smokes"). You are legally obliged to empty the butt can and are liable to charge and conviction under the NDA for failure to do so.

Nothing on the other hand prevents you from emptying the butt can and then going and telling your PL WO what 2LT Half-Trained just did and sitting back and watching the feathers fly, however.

If any body has a different interpretation feel to fire away QR&O‘s

 

[xFusilier]

a commission is a commission. sure they might be trained different (PRes/CIC) but they are all the same when it comes down to the scroll. i really get pissy when i hear all you PRes talking down to CIC. it is because of you we have problems, and in response to an earlier comment, i know plenty of PRes that would follow the command of CIC, before PRes.

1. Very few, if any pers on this forum have stated that a CIC commision is not a commision.

2. If you get all pissy over the fact that people say things you don‘t like, I would suggest that you change your handle to "hopefully airborne never" because you will lack the intestinal fortitude required to survive CPC.

3. The reason that the CIC has problems is because they do not prepare their members to be officers. As a result the CIC gets a bad rap because a large portion of them deport themselves in a manner that would be deplorable for a week one basic training candidate let alone an individual who holds a commission. You, are a CIC officer, you can either suck it up and try your hardest to help fix the problem or you can be one of those people who simply sits back and complains that the RegF and the PRes are "mean" to you.

4. As for knowing plenty of PRes that would follow a CIC officer over a PRes pers. Let me simply put it this way, I spent 16 weeks learning how to lead (Res Inf QL6A) (and I still don‘t have it cracked), that is 14 times longer than the present CIC BOQ. At the time I was in the majority of Junior Infantry Officer had 52 weeks training. So you won‘t mind me if I classify the last statement as ancedotal BS.

5. Lastly the CIC has a very important job to do. But like I said the mark of an officer is when they put the people that they lead (the youth) ahead of themselves. The ones that put the youth ahead of themselves are in my opinion in the minority.

 

[combat_medic]

OK, now we‘re going to do the QR&O thing. We‘ll let‘s start out with the fact that cadets and the CIC are governed by CATOs and not by the QR&Os look it up here. However, the closest regulation I could find relates to the Canadian Rangers, who share the same type of relationship with the CF as the cadets do and it‘s located here .

 

[xFusilier]

Of course we will get into the QR&O‘s you made a statement of military law, one that IMHO cannot be justified.

First of all, while the activities of Cadets are governed by the CATO‘s. The QR&O‘s apply to members of the CIC.

s.2.034 of the QR&O‘s define the reserve force para c) states that the CIC forms a component of the reserve force.

s.1.03(c) QR&O‘s states that the QR&O‘s and therefore the NDA apply to "members of the Reserve Force when subject to the Code of Service Discipline".

Furthermore

s.1.02 QR&O‘s defines officer simply as "a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces".

Therefore we can say from a legal standpoint that

1. The QR&O‘s apply to members of the Reserve Force when subject to the code of service discipline.

2. The CIC forms a component of the Reserve Force

3. As CIC Officers hold HM‘s commision, purusant to the QR&O‘s CIC officers fall under the same definintion of officers commisioned to the Regular or Special Force.

The case in QR&O 3.295 is specific only to the Canadian Rangers.

Nothing you posted stated

a) that CIC are not subject to the NDA, or

b) that CIC are no construed to be officers in the CF, and therefore entitled to complement or that their orders are immediatley construed not to be lawful

 

[primer]

Can we all play in the same sandbox. There are good and bad points to this. Some soldiers hate CIC officers or just hate Officers and then Some Like CIC and other Officers. But let me tell you This as an Officer In the Canadian Forces and hold the Queen‘s Commission If i see something that is not being done by the book or any type of misconduct (Reg - P-Res ) I will tell you once and if i have to say it again look out. It will be Name Rank and Service number ID CARD. Then the Sr NCM will talk and god knows youll listen to him/her.


Ruck up and Soldier on
:soldier:

 

[Infanteer]

The Garrison Gods have spoken...

I could really care less about Cadet officers because they are a 0 factor in my work environment, the field.

 

[Excolis]

look, i am not saying that all officers in the PRes/reg are worse than CIC. i just said that i know a lot of people that have more respect for CIC officers and would rather follow them then many of the PRes officers. i went to school with a few 2Lt‘s in PRes, and i know for a fact that they couldn‘t find there way out of a wet paper bag. and i take constructive critisism very well. all i was trying to say, is that if the PRes would take there heads out of their asses, and give a little respect, i am sure that CIC/PRes would have a better relationship. I see it as three brothers. Reg force is the oldest, PRes middle, and CIC youngest. the Reg force looks down on the PRes, and the PRes looks down on the CIC. The way i look at it is the Reg Force gets there best recruits from the PRes, and the PRes gets theres from the cadets. things would run much smoother if we all worked together.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hopeful. You know people who would rather "follow" a CIC officer. I gotta wonder what you mean by follow. Like follow one of these guys on a navagation excersise, follow them on a shower parade, follow them ‘into combat‘? Theres plenty of people who do their own thing. **** remember those idiots who thought there were aliens behind that comet a few years back?

CIC officers get a fancy piece of paper, 8 days training and vola. Thats all well and great but when it comes down to it (dispite the kids who would prefer to follow them or whatever) they ARE in charge of kids. The army reckognizes them having a commision but it‘s a little far fetched to try and include them in your 3 brother system. They have no capacity to lead soldiers in a war time situation and i know for a fact that a CIC officer will be charged for teaching a group of cadets how to do a section attack because they want to play soldier and don‘t see the harm in it.

 

[Excolis]

i never said we teach section attacks...and just for a quick fact. you can join the PRES at age 16. cadets goes till 19b-day. PRes teaches children to. same stuff different environment. and the brother system i was talking about sure as **** works. and that is how the system runs, just like a conveyor belt.

 

[fusilier955]

Try walking up to a Reg force CWO and order him around, see how far your authority gets you.