CadetPat field uniform

[yoman]

Oh man....I made my point. I can see how the combat Canadian flag worn on Reg and Res uniforms could be seen as taboo for Cadets because it is a part of the CF uniform. Cadets do not wear the CF uniform they wear a Cadet uniform. Do you get me now?

If you're responsible for your actions the what is this:
and this:
You may take responsibility but you are not acting responsible - there are two sides.

I have zero issue with this getting back on track. What bothers me is that you expect to be able to post something and not have someone debate it and it almost seems as though you are using the "back on track" statement to hide out from the debate. I have not much patience for threads here these days as the threads in the cadet forums always seem to end the same way - me baning my head against the wall and feeling drunk. I re-opened this because I thought that there were good discussion points and we needed to get away from the conversations of Cadets looking like soldiers, it had been beaten to death. And what happens? We find something else to beat to death.

You made points, I countered them - that is called debate.

I see what you mean about the Canadian flag on the uniform thing. I still disagree that some people think it should be removed, we being Canadian and all.

Now me being irresponsible because I probably wouldn't remove the flag is different. I will follow orders, just not any that would damage my personal belongings, endanger someones well being or humiliate someone. The flag falls into the personal belongings category.

I have no problem with a debate, infact I think it adds spice to the threads. I just didn't think our issue was what this thread was about.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Now me being irresponsible because I probably wouldn't remove the flag is different. I will follow orders, just not any that would damage my personal belongings, endanger someones well being or humiliate someone. The flag falls into the personal belongings category.

So, if the order (issued or understood) is to not wear the flag on your uniform, and you have a protective instinct towards the thread holding it to your shirt, does that mean you won't wear the uniform article at all, so that you are in compliance with the order?

 

[yoman]

So, if the order (issued or understood) is to not wear the flag on your uniform, and you have a protective instinct towards the thread holding it to your shirt, does that mean you won't wear the uniform article at all, so that you are in compliance with the order?

If the situation did occur, I would probably not wear the uniform article in question.

 

[Scott]

I am going to cut to the chase because enough bandwidth has been wasted on this debate, IMO.

yoman, do you have a problem following rules? Do you think some rules should apply to others and not to you? Do you hope to have a career in the CF or any other para military type organization? (Police, Medical, Fire)

Answer the above honestly, please.

By what you are saying here I have come to understand this:
-You added a personal item to a piece of issued kit.
-If asked to remove said item from said piece of kit that does not belong to you, you would just not wear the piece of kit.

The former is something that I would have zero knowledge of rules and regs on, I can add personal things to my fire clothing provided it is not offensive and passes approval, if it doesn't I must remove it no matter if it cost me a million bucks and I signed over my first born for it.

The latter makes no sense to me. It would be like me saying that I added a sticker, which was not allowed under policy, to my fire helmet and when asked to remove it I wouldn't, I just didn't wear the helmet. How much sense does that make? Was it your uniform article in the first place?

I am rapidly tiring of this, every time we suggest something to you, something born of experience with these sorts of things you have some other argument to the contrary. I'll make it real simple for you - if you are ordered to do something in the CF and you do not do it you can go to jail. If you are in some other job you can be fired. It is called insubordination, think about it.

 

[yoman]

I am going to cut to the chase because enough bandwidth has been wasted on this debate, IMO.

yoman, do you have a problem following rules? Do you think some rules should apply to others and not to you? Do you hope to have a career in the CF or any other para military type organization? (Police, Medical, Fire)

Answer the above honestly, please.

By what you are saying here I have come to understand this:
-You added a personal item to a piece of issued kit.
-If asked to remove said item from said piece of kit that does not belong to you, you would just not wear the piece of kit.

The former is something that I would have zero knowledge of rules and regs on, I can add personal things to my fire clothing provided it is not offensive and passes approval, if it doesn't I must remove it no matter if it cost me a million bucks and I signed over my first born for it.

The latter makes no sense to me. It would be like me saying that I added a sticker, which was not allowed under policy, to my fire helmet and when asked to remove it I wouldn't, I just didn't wear the helmet. How much sense does that make? Was it your uniform article in the first place?

I am rapidly tiring of this, every time we suggest something to you, something born of experience with these sorts of things you have some other argument to the contrary. I'll make it real simple for you - if you are ordered to do something in the CF and you do not do it you can go to jail. If you are in some other job you can be fired. It is called insubordination, think about it.

Do you not get that this is not issued gear we are talking about hear? Everything we wear on FTX's is our own property. I chose to wear OD combats.

I have no problem following rules. Rules should be applied to everyone and not just to some individuals. Yes I do hope to have a career in the CF.

No that doesn't make sense because the item is not your property. Yes it is my uniform article in the first place.

I know what happens when you don't follow rules. I come from a family of police officers, consequences will happen.

I am going to try and clarify certain things so that you can understand.

- This is not issued kit
- I would remove the article (that belongs to me) in question if somebody asks me to remove something from that article that belongs to me
- The only issued kit at the LHQ level is the parade uniform
- You are told to wear appropriate cloth for when we have FTX
- if the article was issued, then I would do what was asked

 

[Scott]

Clear.

 

[c.jacob]

Do you not get that this is not issued gear we are talking about hear? Everything we wear on FTX's is our own property. I chose to wear OD combats.

I have no problem following rules. Rules should be applied to everyone and not just to some individuals. Yes I do hope to have a career in the CF.

No that doesn't make sense because the item is not your property. Yes it is my uniform article in the first place.

I know what happens when you don't follow rules. I come from a family of police officers, consequences will happen.

I am going to try and clarify certain things so that you can understand.

- This is not issued kit
- I would remove the article (that belongs to me) in question if somebody asks me to remove something from that article that belongs to me
- The only issued kit at the LHQ level is the parade uniform
- You are told to wear appropriate cloth for when we have FTX
- if the article was issued, then I would do what was asked

Sorry for jumping in but if you can not wear them properly than you shouldn't be wearing them.  Yes it is personal kit purchased by you but it is still a uniform.  You can wear your beret with combats which you can not with civilian clothing.  Imagine a parade night where combats is the dress of the day and all the cadets wore whatever badges they felt like (flags, green rank badges, etc) just because they felt like it and they paid for their combats so therefore they could leave it on there.

 

[Scott]

So here would be the perfect example of why we want Cadets, in the Cadet forums, to police themselves. You guys know the rules, I am 10 years removed from them.

Once again, if you want to go quoting rules you had better be prepared to live by them.

Bet the next retort is that he doesn't wear the beret with his OD's  :

 

[yoman]

Bet the next retort is that he doesn't wear the beret with his OD's  :

I don't, simply because I don't have one and not allowed to because of CO's orders. 

Sorry for jumping in but if you can not wear them properly than you shouldn't be wearing them.  Yes it is personal kit purchased by you but it is still a uniform.  You can wear your beret with combats which you can not with civilian clothing.  Imagine a parade night where combats is the dress of the day and all the cadets wore whatever badges they felt like (flags, green rank badges, etc) just because they felt like it and they paid for their combats so therefore they could leave it on there.

Yes I understand what you mean and agree with it. Its just, I don't think that the Canadian flag should be removed. If there would of been rank insignias I would of removed it.

I didn't think you can have a parade night where combats was the dress. Being that you are not obligated to have them.

 

[gun plumber]

Just a quick question,
If a Canadian flag sewn on your uniform is such a problem,why not acquire(read,purchace,not steal! ) a bassard of similar material,sew the flag,your cadet\combat identifier and your cadet rank on it and wear it with your uniform.This way:
1.you could not be mistaken for a soldier,because this item is not worn with the issued uniform as a common item.
2.If told to remove the flag off your uniform,not a problem.a quick 2 seconds is all you need , you wouldn't have to take a knife to your own property and would draw less attention to yourself,
3.Bassards are cool!LOL  ;D

Sorry Scott if I re-opened Pandora's Box,this was not my intention.I just wanted to pass on an option nobody has yet looked at.

 

[GGHG_Cadet]

I do believe some corps do that. Others do not. It is because there is no standard what so ever about combats. Some regions outlaw them while others turn a blind eye, in out dress regs it says that combats should only be worn at summer camps but some corps do not abide by that. I think what happens is basically as long as the region doesn't recieve any complaints then COs are basically free to do what they want within their corps (to a certain extent).

When my corps wears combats we have a specially made corps patch that says cadet on it on one side and on the other we have our round RCAC identifier patch.

 

[PViddy]

Ok,

I have been reading this thread with much interest.  So the Canadian Flag thing comes up, just to note that this post is not to prove anyone wrong, just to get the right info out there. 

I am not hear to say your CO is wrong, because he or she would have the ultimate disgression on the matter.  i post only what i have read on our (CIC) network (the CIC DIN).  Perhaps, if you need more clarrifcation you could somhow politely sugest to your staff thtat they may be able to find further clarrification on this site.

This very same debate came up on Cadet.net as been clarrified (i would post a link, but it is a internal network).

So here it goes, it has been clarrified that nothing prevents a cadet from wearing names tapes  or the Canadian flag attached to proper CF issued clothing** (see below for clarrification of this statement).  It can be noted that at summer camps (depending on the course) when CF combat clothing is actually issued, comes with the flag sewn on.

*Name tapes - Since it could be considered that the anchor, eagle or swords on the cadpat name tapes could be used as a CF unit identifier, cadets should have their name listed only.*

Also CADPAT clothing, can be considered as official CF clothing under CATO 55-04 (air) and therfore if purchased lawfully would be authorized for wear with "cadet" slip ons, and proper head dress (the question than beng can CADPAT be purchased lawfully ? probably not) NOTE* that the CF CADPAT tilly is not a form of authorized head dress under CATO 55-04.

The above was clarrified by the AirTrgO RCSU(C) does this interpretation apply tto Army and Sea Cadets ? i really don't know, CATO's are CATO's but ultimately the other elemental training cells may wish to pursue a different avenue until we actually get some written orders printed and updated.

I say  again, i am just sharing my info and insight on the subject, don't be dumb and tell your staff that they are wrong, i am not your CO.  if you have further questions on this, feel free to send me a PM so that we don't have to strech this any further, i feel Scott's patience streching 

In closing i will post a direct quote from sombody that dictates this information, name withheld for confidentiality.

"The key issues here are that cadets are suitably attired for both prevailing weather conditions and the type of training being conducted, that cadets in any sort of military clothing are not mistaken for CF or other military personnel, that cadet insignia is only worn by cadets wearing full CF pattern clothing"


cheers

PV

 

[yoman]

Ok,

I have been reading this thread with much interest.  So the Canadian Flag thing comes up, just to note that this post is not to prove anyone wrong, just to get the right info out there. 

I am not hear to say your CO is wrong, because he or she would have the ultimate disgression on the matter.  i post only what i have read on our (CIC) network (the CIC DIN).  Perhaps, if you need more clarrifcation you could somhow politely sugest to your staff thtat they may be able to find further clarrification on this site.

This very same debate came up on Cadet.net as been clarrified (i would post a link, but it is a internal network).

So here it goes, it has been clarrified that nothing prevents a cadet from wearing names tapes  or the Canadian flag attached to proper CF issued clothing** (see below for clarrification of this statement).  It can be noted that at summer camps (depending on the course) when CF combat clothing is actually issued, comes with the flag sewn on.

*Name tapes - Since it could be considered that the anchor, eagle or swords on the cadpat name tapes could be used as a CF unit identifier, cadets should have their name listed only.*

Also CADPAT clothing, can be considered as official CF clothing under CATO 55-04 (air) and therfore if purchased lawfully would be authorized for wear with "cadet" slip ons, and proper head dress (the question than beng can CADPAT be purchased lawfully ? probably not) NOTE* that the CF CADPAT tilly is not a form of authorized head dress under CATO 55-04.

The above was clarrified by the AirTrgO RCSU(C) does this interpretation apply tto Army and Sea Cadets ? i really don't know, CATO's are CATO's but ultimately the other elemental training cells may wish to pursue a different avenue until we actually get some written orders printed and updated.

I say  again, i am just sharing my info and insight on the subject, don't be dumb and tell your staff that they are wrong, i am not your CO.  if you have further questions on this, feel free to send me a PM so that we don't have to strech this any further, i feel Scott's patience streching 

In closing i will post a direct quote from sombody that dictates this information, name withheld for confidentiality.

"The key issues here are that cadets are suitably attired for both prevailing weather conditions and the type of training being conducted, that cadets in any sort of military clothing are not mistaken for CF or other military personnel, that cadet insignia is only worn by cadets wearing full CF pattern clothing"

cheers

PV

Thank you very much on clarifying this for everybody.

Just a quick question on what you said. Do cadets have to wear their rank slip ons when they are wearing the OD combats?

 

[condor888000]

As an air cadet, yes. It is in 55-04, so put them on. And wear either your wedge, a beret, a tilley, or the cadet toque.

Which of course few or no one does. Even though they should.

 

[yoman]

As an air cadet, yes. It is in 55-04, so put them on. And wear either your wedge, a beret, a tilley, or the cadet toque.

Which of course few or no one does. Even though they should.

Thank you. And your right, no one does. I might bring it up when I can.

 

[PViddy]

Just a quick question on what you said. Do cadets have to wear their rank slip ons when they are wearing the OD combats?

absoluetly.

And yes, of course my post was more so from the Air perspective, thanks for the clarification.  I breifly went through the Sea and Army CATO's tonight, but could not decipher any particulars in regards to the topic at hand, maybe sombody else can jump in.....

cheers

PV

 

[Burrows]

There you go, as far as the flag issue, it is allowed.

 

[PViddy]

Now futhering that, i would say that is is tolerable...not incouraged.  I know at my own unit, i don't thnk any cadet has the flag still sewn on.  Mainly because the Officers themselves ran on misinformation and rumors for the last ten years about wheather you can have the flag on, or not-as you can see this has recently been clarrified for air units mainly.  take it for what it's worth.


cheers

PV

 

[Pte Joker]

i thought this was a CADETPAT topic not a freaking flag topic i wear the flag and reg force and reserve guys have seen me with it they don't seem to care i love Canada would not want to live any where else so I'm keeping it on and now lets get back to the CADETPAT now do any of you have a link or pics of the new one with black buttons

 

[PViddy]

thought this was a CADETPAT topic not a freaking flag topic i wear the flag and reg force and reserve guys have seen me with it they don't seem to care i love Canada would not want to live any where else so I'm keeping it on and now lets get back to the CADETPAT now do any of you have a link or pics of the new one with black buttons 

Actually, I, among other wer trying to clear up a few misconceptions.  Deal with it.


PV