CADPAT Rain Gear

[soldiers301]

Here is a link to a picture of CADPAT Rainwear trial. What do you think about it ?

http://www.geocities.com/canuck_infantry/CADPAT_Trials_Rain_Gear.JPG

 

[Inch]

That pic looks different than the CADPAT raingear we get in the Air Force, ours looks more like a gortex shell than a rain jacket. Though I think that's because ours dissipates static,  which is not a requirement for the army.

 

[McG]

. . . which is not a requirement for the army.

Unless you work with explosives.  Then it is a very high priorety.  Unfortunatly, the Army approach has been to tell soldiers that they cannot wear the issued enviromental clothing when working with explosives.  The static electricity problem is solved, but  instead you have a bunch of cold & wet sappers.

 

[Inch]

Good point, I have no idea why they couldn't be issued the same rain gear we get. Then again, it's taken the army how long to get gortex CADPAT combat coats? We're all going to have ours by Feb.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

That thing looks like a rubber rain jacket.  WTF? 

Can't CTS have a look at what every other modern military has done in terms of using a trilaminate Gore-Tex shell jacket and pants as part of an all-climate rainjacket/shell system?  It's like they take 1/2 a step forward with the first generation Gore-Tex IECS and then when people complain that it is impractical they say "Well clearly Gore-Tex doesn't work...Let's go back to the rubber jacket" rather than look at the real reason why IECS was a failure as a rain jacket because of it's NYCO outer shell that would get soaked and become extremely heavy.

My Marine issue Gore-Tex Gen-II ECWCS jacket is one of the best pieces of equipment I've ever came across.  It's too bad CTS doesn't just do a cadpat Canadianized version of it or the British or German Gore-Tex and be done with it. 

 

[Recce41]

Gents
Remember, our raingear is also our parka cover. GorTex sucks in the arctic. Gortex or GenTex comes in 2 or 3 ply. 2 is gortex that is under a outer. 3 ply is a full Gortex liner and shell. My civie jacket is 3 ply and sucks in the winter after it gets wet. This is due to the pores of the Gor freezing. The best bet would be two jackets. A full  gor and a 2 ply for winter. Yes. we have whites, but they done work when its green. But cold.

 

[Bartok5]

Fellas,

That picture is from my web-site.  It is one of 2 types of CADPAT rainsuit that were trialled here in Gagetown about a year ago.  The version that you see in my collection was the "cheap" alternative, using PVC-coated nylon construction.  The other version was the 3-ply Goretex shell.  The troops conducting the trial were universal in their preference for the Gortex version, which is what CTS is buying as part of the Army/Airforce merged "ICE" system.  The Airforce received their Goretex raingear ahead of the Army simply because they funded their project first. 

The trials rainsuit that I have is very well made, with all of the same features as the Goretex version that is being procured.  Aside from the less than ideal material, the construction is top-notch.  The jacket features fully-taped seams, 2-way zippers, a double-layer storm flap, a stow-away hood, internal lycra cuffs, under-arm zips, shock-cord waist and hem drawstrings, an extended seat, etc.  The trousers are equally impressive with zippered calves for donning over your boots, etc, etc. 

I have seen the Goretex version that we are getting, and it is a thing of beauty.  MUCH nicer than the U.S. 2nd Generation IECS jacket, which tends to be the yard-stick where military weatherproof clothing is concerned.

I trust that this will clear up any confusion regarding the trials rain gear depicted on my web-site.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Thank Goodness!

That has to be the ugliest rain jacket I have seen in a while.

Kind of looks like a Newfie sou-wester with a pattern on it!

I'm glad you explained the difference in between the pictured version and the soon to be acquired version!

 

[aesop081]

Inch,

Are you guys in Shearwater allowed to wear the CADPAT rain coat with your flightsuit ??  Here in Winnipeg, we are not so we have to stay soaked !!

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Recce41,

On the subject of Gore-Tex sucking in the winter, I'll disagree with you there.

I've never had a problem with my 3ply Gore-Tex civvie jacket freezing when I've been mountaineering or snowboarding in the winter.

I have heard of some occasions in extreme cold with frost accumulating inside the Gore-Tex as moisture vapor freezes when it touches the Gore-Tex shell.  In these cases you simply brush the frost off the inside of the jacket and continue on.

Based on your argument, even a non-coated fabric such as that used in the combat parka would freeze when moisture vapor from your body and insulated layers that was passing through would freeze when it came in contact with freezing air on the fabric's surface in extreme cold.

One of the keys to having Gore-Tex perform well is to maintain the outer fabric's water repellency.  A product such as Nikwax or Revivex applied once or twice a year will do wonders.
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=779985&product_listing_all=true&bmUID=1101140925250

*Edit*

Mark,

Thanks for the inside scoop.   I went into rant mode, whereas I should have contacted you directly about the rainwear trial since the picture was taken from your site to clear up my confusion.

Interestingly enough, the Marine Corps is replacing its Gen II ECWCS with the APECS/All-Purpose Environmental Clothing System
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/pmice/pj_cl_apecs.asp

I've had a chance to fondle it at the Modern Day Marine trade-show in Quantico and it's pretty decent looking stuff.   Some of the changes they've made are:
Marpat rather than Woodland camouflage
Supplex Nylon rather than Taslan.   Supplex has a softer hand and is quieter and has better water repellency and it is lighter weight than Taslan.
Urethane coated zippers on chest pockets and underarm zipers to prevent water leaking in.

Good luck trying to get your hands on a set in the next couple years as a collector.   Right now that stuff hasn't even been fielded to the Fleet Marine Force and only a few 'trials' sets are floating around Quantico.   We should be getting it sometime in 2005/2006.

 

[Inch]

Inch,

Are you guys in Shearwater allowed to wear the CADPAT rain coat with your flightsuit ??   Here in Winnipeg, we are not so we have to stay soaked !!

We haven't got it yet, I think we're the last operational base to get it.  Only the techs have it right now and they wear it all the time with their blue coveralls. I asked around and the impression that I got is that we will be permitted to wear it with our flight suits if the weather dictates, not while flying though for obvious reasons (it'll melt in a fire!). The TacHel guys have it and they wear it when they're not flying.

Cheers

 

[zerhash]

geeze new rain coats?

im still waiting on my combat umbrella!

Cadpat, with kevlar and ballistic plates.... and YES it stops rain!! (sometimes)

 

[Recce41]

The old rain jacket was not really a rain jacket. I had one dated 1978, the tag read parka wet weather cover. Not rain jacket. In the old winter warfare book, it is used to cover your parka when the weather gets warm. to keep your parka dry. Those of us that have worn the old one and Gortex one, will know the difference. The old one was cotton, it allowed you vent. Cotton does not freeze the way gortex does. At -30c, gortex due to its plastic content gets hard, and holds the water. Cotton is natural and folds, allowing the micro crystals to brake. On my Adv Winter Warfare course, the old ranger always said KISS. Rangers use, equipment so old. canvas tents soaked in oil, cotton/wool shirts, boots with no lases.
I have been hunting and fishing wearing, my old clothing. And warmer than, in my new or military kit. To me high tech is not always the best.
On SUEs we have issued US Army and Marines winter clothing. In 92, 2nd Anglo and 3/67, 75th Rangers have come up, with all their kit. We ended up issuing them our parkas ( pat1964).
Yes. Gor is great if it is keep clean, and reasonably maintained. But at arctic weather, you cannot wash, clothes get dirty with oil.
That is why, I still wear my old one to the field. And my last new one is still in the plastic bag.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Recce41,

KISS is always a great principle, as is COLD.  Any article of clothing that gets dirty/soiled loses its ability to insulate as the textile's fibres become matted and the amount insulating airspace between those fibres is reduced as well as the fibre's ability to repel water or maintain a level of hydrophobia, as the dirt soaks up moisture.  Cotton is the worst when wet, as the fibres become saturated with water and lose all their insulating capability.  There is truth to the saying that 'Cotton Kills' when used in cold or wet environments.

US cold weather kit has came a long way in the last 10 years from the first gen Gore-Tex ECWCS parka and trousers, heavyweight brown polypro, brown pile 'buffalo' suit, 5 button wool sweater, Korean War wool shirt, NYCO field pants with button-in liners and green 'fish-tail' parka.

The stuff that we've got issued now is leaps and bounds ahead of that which those troops had back in 1992.  About the only downside to all the fleece that we're issued now is its low flame resistance and tendency to melt when burnt.

 

[George Wallace]

Matt and Dave.....Don't forget the main defence against the real Cold is to Layer.......and Matt.......Tim's has had Nooo effect on the CF........I am not an addict...................................................................time for a Large Double Double.


GW

 

[Gunnerlove]

If Gore-Tex froze in the cold it would not be the shell of choice for mountaineers. I remember looking at the "Gore-Tex" jacket the army issued me and being shocked at how backward a garment it was. They created new ways to make mistakes. Like the full liner? three ply "Gore-Tex" does not need a protective liner that is why three ply was developed. All the pockets without any protection from the rain? Zippers that are upside down? No waterproof zippers?

I wonder what the purchase price is for the current jacket including development. To be honest I have not been convinced that my issue jacket has "Gore-Tex" in it. If it does why is there no Gore Creative Technologies label in it like every other Gore-Tex garment? Shame?

 

[George Wallace]

You do have a valid point about the label.   I believe it is a Registered Trade Mark and required by the company to include that on any item made of that material.   Even my Bivie Bag has it stamped on it, but I have yet to find any such labelling on any of my jackets or parkas, and I have gotten soaked in them after long periods of 'playing' in prolonged wet conditions.  :-[

GW

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Good point Gunnerlove.

Even on our issue stuff, the Gore-Tex stamp is on the inside and 'Gore-Tex Best Defense' labels are sewn on the garment.

 

[Recce41]

Our jackets have a shell, for one reason, oil eats gortex. I will always stay with my old one.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Oil doesn't eat Gore-Tex.

Have a look at what the US Air Force is using for their Bulk Fuel Handler's:
http://www.goremilitary.com/ow_product3.html