CAF Specialist Pay [Spec Pay]- All Trades [MERGED]
- Thread starter korgano
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garb811 said:
Same question: 2 years TIR and still no PLQ?? What's up with that?? Extended into the 3rd year of a Compassionate posting (I think not as then he couldn't have been promoted on that status either)?? Pre-deployment trg/deployment scenario taking up all his time the past 2 years?? Edited to add: an out of country posting that they can't possibly send him back from to attend the course is a possibility, although I did have one of those guys on my ILQ with me.
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The MS only got promoted this APS, so he's kinda slow in our trade given today's standards and I'm pretty disappointed in him. 
The Branch brings people back from overseas postings for career courses now. It was causing too many problems by not bringing them back (ie. people release on return while A/L, people are merited high enough to be promoted while still A/L in the current rank etc). While it is possible to defer for a little bit of time, there's no more putting off career courses for the entire 4 years someone is at an Embassy, GK or SHAPE.
The Branch brings people back from overseas postings for career courses now. It was causing too many problems by not bringing them back (ie. people release on return while A/L, people are merited high enough to be promoted while still A/L in the current rank etc). While it is possible to defer for a little bit of time, there's no more putting off career courses for the entire 4 years someone is at an Embassy, GK or SHAPE.
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You guys are confusing operational/environmental allowances and vested pay. Environmental allowances cease when the member is no longer posted to a position that is eligible to collect the environmental allowance. Spec pay and Pilot pay (in essence Spec pay for pilots), are trade based and are actual pay rates. One is pensionable, one is not.
You can argue till the cows come home about who gets it and what their qualifications are, but it's all decided in Ottawa based on what a particular person with a defined skill set (and sometimes medical category) would be making in the public sector.
So, a pilot in a designated flying position is eligible for aircrew allowance and pilot pay, once posted out of a flying position, aircrew allowance ceases but pilot pay does not. If you lose your med cat and are no longer fit for pilot, it's a forced remuster and you lose your pilot pay. The same goes for AESOps, they get Spec 1 and aircrew allowance until they're posted to a non-flying position in which case they lose their aircrew allowance but keep their Spec 1 since they still meet the requirements to be an AESOp.
You can argue till the cows come home about who gets it and what their qualifications are, but it's all decided in Ottawa based on what a particular person with a defined skill set (and sometimes medical category) would be making in the public sector.
So, a pilot in a designated flying position is eligible for aircrew allowance and pilot pay, once posted out of a flying position, aircrew allowance ceases but pilot pay does not. If you lose your med cat and are no longer fit for pilot, it's a forced remuster and you lose your pilot pay. The same goes for AESOps, they get Spec 1 and aircrew allowance until they're posted to a non-flying position in which case they lose their aircrew allowance but keep their Spec 1 since they still meet the requirements to be an AESOp.
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Inch summed it up very nicely, and what he states about Aircrew Allowance is the same for Sea Duty Allowance.
PS: The very same rationale will, and is, also be applied to the Field Environment Allowance. In fact they are in the process of determining those positions entitled to receive FEA on a continuous basis (60 days of FOA throughout the year on a continuous basis will entitle FEA).
PS: The very same rationale will, and is, also be applied to the Field Environment Allowance. In fact they are in the process of determining those positions entitled to receive FEA on a continuous basis (60 days of FOA throughout the year on a continuous basis will entitle FEA).
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Very nice to see the guys and gals in green getting the same allowances as we do in the Air Force and the Navy. A long time overdue IMHO.
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There's work underway now to identify time posted to field units in the past; just like air and sea allowances, the new field allowance will increase with time served - and there will be credit for past service. So everyone will not start at the same point on day one... a nice reward for the folks with the most time in field units.
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Inch said:
We didn't confuse them. We actually pointed out that jump pay fell under the Operational/enviornmental allowances and also that one must be IN the position to collect them.
But, it was also pointed out that those tax-free operational allowances in Afghanistan once were the EXACT same way. And, the CF managed to fix that no?? Why can't they fix the other operational/enviornmental allowances that see jumpers etc who are injured doing their jobs (thus removed from the 'entitled' position number) and who also lose their allowance due to circumstances beyond their control??
I think that was the point ...
It doesn't seem quite right or "fair" that it is OK to take away an allowance from someone injured during the performance of their job because they require to be removed from that position due to injury, yet it is allowable to allow others to collect spec pay etc when they are not employed in a specific spec position doing that spec job. Neither person is out of that position through any fault of their own ... yet only one loses the benefits of that position. The guys medevaced from theatre used to too, but that's been corrected.
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Vern,
Spec pay and environmental allowances are very different beasts. Jumper is not a trade, it has no MOC/MOSID nor is the allowance pensionable, neither is aircrew, sea duty, foreign service, etc. When you are no longer employed in a position that is entitled to an environmental allowance, you shouldn't get it anymore. Getting Spec pay when posted out of your field is entirely different than losing jump pay when posted out of a para coy.
When I am posted out of 423 Sqn, I will take a pay cut, period. I will lose my sea pay and my aircrew allowance when I go to a non-flying position. And the fact of the matter is while you may not be flying, turning wrenches or fixing things, you can still be employed in a job that requires your expertise but not your skills, hence the reason you keep Spec/Pilot pay.
If you let everyone keep sea pay, aircrew allowance, etc just because they were posted, why not just jack up the pay rates and eliminate allowances altogether? But that would defeat the purpose of the allowances wouldn't it? Allowances exist to compensate you for your working conditions, flying is inherently dangerous, thus we get aircrew allowance when in a flying position. Sailing is also dangerous and uncomfortable, so we get sea pay to compensate us for that, something someone working in an orderly room doesn't have to put up with usually.
For the record, people don't lose their sea pay, or aircrew allowance for being on a TCat, I'm not sure the time required before you lose environmental allowances but I would guess if you're on TCat for less than 6 months you would keep it. I can't say for jumpers but I doubt that their jump pay ceases the moment they break an ankle.
My understanding of the foreign service pay, risk and hazard allowances that the injured guys in Afghanistan are allowed to keep is only the amount that they would have gotten had they stayed in theatre. It doesn't continue indefinitely.
Spec pay and environmental allowances are very different beasts. Jumper is not a trade, it has no MOC/MOSID nor is the allowance pensionable, neither is aircrew, sea duty, foreign service, etc. When you are no longer employed in a position that is entitled to an environmental allowance, you shouldn't get it anymore. Getting Spec pay when posted out of your field is entirely different than losing jump pay when posted out of a para coy.
When I am posted out of 423 Sqn, I will take a pay cut, period. I will lose my sea pay and my aircrew allowance when I go to a non-flying position. And the fact of the matter is while you may not be flying, turning wrenches or fixing things, you can still be employed in a job that requires your expertise but not your skills, hence the reason you keep Spec/Pilot pay.
If you let everyone keep sea pay, aircrew allowance, etc just because they were posted, why not just jack up the pay rates and eliminate allowances altogether? But that would defeat the purpose of the allowances wouldn't it? Allowances exist to compensate you for your working conditions, flying is inherently dangerous, thus we get aircrew allowance when in a flying position. Sailing is also dangerous and uncomfortable, so we get sea pay to compensate us for that, something someone working in an orderly room doesn't have to put up with usually.
For the record, people don't lose their sea pay, or aircrew allowance for being on a TCat, I'm not sure the time required before you lose environmental allowances but I would guess if you're on TCat for less than 6 months you would keep it. I can't say for jumpers but I doubt that their jump pay ceases the moment they break an ankle.
My understanding of the foreign service pay, risk and hazard allowances that the injured guys in Afghanistan are allowed to keep is only the amount that they would have gotten had they stayed in theatre. It doesn't continue indefinitely.
- Reaction score
- 118
- Points
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Inch said:
I absolutely 100% agree with your post. But in the case above ... those amounts they are now collecting for the time they would have been in theatre were also originally intended for:
It was changed as the soldiers were injured through no fault of their own and thus were losing that operational allowance (that was based upon them being actually employed in that op position doing the job). So jumpers are, let's say, normally posted into a jump posn for a 3 year stint (I think that's still the "agreement" when you request that basic para course ... 3 years service with a jump coy etc), why not then, when they are injured ... continue to pay them their jump pay for whatever remains of that 3 year period the same way those injured in Afghanistan are now compensated for money they lose due to injury?? There are parallels.
The period of time may be longer in the case above than that of an Op tour, but the monies are of significantly smaller amounts as well.
There will never be an easy way to accomplish any of this, and what others see as "fair," others do not. That will always be the case. They have to leave soldiers with something to bitch about ... or else soldiers would have nothing to bitch about and that is a pre-req for soldiers.
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No one here is arguing that Pay and Allowances are one in the same - quite to the contrary.
What is being stated is that the rationale which was employed to secure allowances for pers unable to continue to serve in the qualifying conidtions could be employed in a similar manner to "above base" pay.
6 1/2 Dozen
What is being stated is that the rationale which was employed to secure allowances for pers unable to continue to serve in the qualifying conidtions could be employed in a similar manner to "above base" pay.
6 1/2 Dozen
- Reaction score
- 118
- Points
- 680
silver said:
I guess you missed the "jumper injured doing their job" part right?? In comparing it being OK to then take their allowance operational allowance away because of that injury. This used to happen to our injured in Afghanistan too (ie they also lost their operational allowances when injured and removed from the "entitled position" ... until the CF fixed it!!
So, like was said earlier ... you see that as fair. Others don't. It's the exact same situation on a smaller scale, but doesn't garner the media attention (also pointed out earlier).
N
navychick77
Guest
Below are a few links on Spec pay and a newsletter outlining Specialist pay and how it works, one of the quotes below fm the article.
The CF does not pay personnel based on individual qualifications, but on the requirements of the occupation. In order to receive Specialist Pay, the majority of personnel in a Specialist Pay occupation must be doing jobs that score in the Specialist Pay range in accordance with the CFTEP methodology.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/7_06/7_06_dgcb_spec-pay_e
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/specpay_article_e.a
Hope this helps a bit.
Cheers
The CF does not pay personnel based on individual qualifications, but on the requirements of the occupation. In order to receive Specialist Pay, the majority of personnel in a Specialist Pay occupation must be doing jobs that score in the Specialist Pay range in accordance with the CFTEP methodology.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/7_06/7_06_dgcb_spec-pay_e
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/specpay_article_e.a
Hope this helps a bit.
Cheers
I was just currious and have spent exactly an hour and a half searching and googling thru the QR&O and the CBI and just can't seem to get anywhere... just keeps throwing me back and forth... Does anyone have a nice list of the trades to make life easier for me?
