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CAN Liberals: Outta AFG after 2009

The Bread Guy

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Liberals back Afghan mission until 2009
Campbell Clark, Globe & Mail, 21 Feb 07
Article Link

The federal Liberals will support Canada's NATO mission remaining in southern Afghanistan until 2009 but call for another country to take over afterward, according to sources in the party.

Split between hawks and doves, Stéphane Dion's opposition party has hammered out its long-promised common-ground position that includes signalling to allies that Canada will give up the leadership of the Kandahar-based NATO mission at the end of its current tour, two years from now.

When he took the reins of the Liberal Party in December, Mr. Dion said he would have little patience for a rising Canadian death toll unless the mission achieved better results. But he also faced a faction of MPs, including deputy leader Michael Ignatieff, who adamantly oppose early withdrawal.

Tomorrow, Mr. Dion will deliver an address in Montreal outlining his party's new position. Liberal sources said the key elements have been hammered out in meetings of MPs over several weeks.

Canadian troops moved from Kabul, the Afghan capital, to the more dangerous Kandahar province at the beginning of 2006, where a reconstituted Taliban has conducted a series of bloody offensives. Forty-three Canadians have been killed since the Canadian military deployed to Afghanistan in early 2002.

Last spring, Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper extended the mission, initiated by the previous Liberal government, to February 2009. But some candidates then running for the Liberal leadership, including Mr. Dion, suggested Canada might consider withdrawing sooner.

Now, the Liberals have decided to back the current Kandahar mission until the end of that current deployment, hoping to avoid criticisms that they would abandon a Canadian international commitment.

They will also argue that the mission is misguided and losing support from Afghans, that the West should change its approach and that Canada should tell NATO to find another country to take over the mission in 2009.

However, one Liberal said that does not mean Mr. Dion will rule out a possible future role for Canadian troops in other parts of Afghanistan.

That position will allow the Liberals to criticize the Conservative government on its conduct of the Afghan mission, but might also reduce its impact as an issue differentiating the two parties in an election campaign. Now only the NDP is calling for early withdrawal.

In addition, the Liberals will propose changing Canada's approach to Afghanistan, including a bigger commitment to development aid, political efforts aimed at broadening the support of the Afghan government and combatting corruption, and dealing with the illegal opium-poppy crop that helps finance the Taliban.

The Liberals say public support for the mission is waning because the Conservatives have focused Canada's role too much on military efforts and not enough on diplomacy and development aid. The Conservative government has insisted it is doing both, but that it is impossible to deliver aid without securing a strife-torn region.

Many experts have recently called for a major increase in both troops and aid. In January, the United States and Britain announced increases in their troop contingents in the country, and U.S. President George W. Bush said he would seek an additional $10.6-billion over two years.

 
It just makes the Liberals look distracted and wishy-washy....couldn't get it right before, paced nervously back and forth over the last year, now making noise that they are on board....

next.....
 
I wonder what their position will be tomorrow, well I guess their position tomorrow doesn't matter as much as their position next week or the week after that or after that,.... etc., etc.!

There's a whole lot of room for flip flopping positions between now and 2009.
 
This mornings political tidbit. A poll conduct shows that 74% of those contacted feel Dion is a liability to the Liberal party. So much for supporting the leader. Is the water around the ship now going to crowded as the "proverbial" rats leave. It was also noted that Dion has little experience as anything but a professional politican and while described as "highly intelligent" he lacks the "charisma" of a successful one.
Source: CTV.Canada.AM
 
These are some of the reason(s) why the liberal party will stay on the opposition side of the house in the next election. Dion is more than wishy washy, he has no clear mandate, how he got to become the party leader is behond me. The most the liberals can muster up right now is a very weak and shaky voice. Not many people have faith in them anymore and its going to take a long time before people trust them enough again, to give them back the reigns. Out of (10), I'd give the liberals right now a (1). The only reason their getting the (1) is because they succeeded in staying in as the official opposition.

As for Harper, well so far he's stayed the course, he pissed of a few people with the cancellation of the personal corporate tax exemption, and opting out of the Kyoto accord (plan had no teeth anyhow). But in all in his short stint, he's done a fair job, not great, but OK. Out of (10) I'd give Harper a (6), only time will tell if he gets a better or poorer score.
 
Slightly off topic, but:

Those who, like me, are partisan Conservatives ought not to gloat.  The Liberal Party of Canada is a formidable political institution, arguably one of the most successful in modern history.  The Liberals are not stupid; they know how to win elections.

I hope we, Canada, can manage to develop a real, healthy two party system in which the two parties change roles (government <> opposition) every decade or so, rather than 20 or 30 year stretches of Liberal rule interspersed with shorter stretches of Conservative bumbling.

Dion may be all the things the polls and press say he is, this week, but, as Harold Wilson said, “a week is a long time in politics.”
 
3rd Herd said:
This mornings political tidbit. A poll conduct shows that 74% of those contacted feel Dion is a liability to the Liberal party. So much for supporting the leader. Is the water around the ship now going to crowded as the "proverbial" rats leave. It was also noted that Dion has little experience as anything but a professional politican and while described as "highly intelligent" he lacks the "charisma" of a successful one.  Source: CTV.Canada.AM

Exacerbated, no doubt, but the reported split over whether Canada's terrorism laws should be continued or not....

ERC's bang on, though.  Big Red is a pretty formidable political machine in much (but not necessarily all) of Canada - they're not called (agree or not) "the natural governing party of Canada" for nothing.

We'll see what happens March 19th....
http://www.fin.gc.ca/news07/07-014e.html

Canada’s New Government to Table Its Second Budget on March 19, 2007

The Honourable Jim Flaherty, Minister of Finance, will table the second budget of Canada’s New Government on March 19, 2007. The Minister will present it in the House of Commons at approximately 4 p.m. EDT that day.  "In this budget, Canada’s New Government intends to take a fair and principled approach to fiscal balance, as proposed in the discussion document Restoring Fiscal Balance in Canada, which we released with Budget 2006," said Minister Flaherty. "We will deliver on our commitment to hard-working Canadians and their families to put money back in their pockets by further reducing taxes." ....
 
I suppose the Conservatives can be nasty and suggest that the Liberals have no ability to stay the course for any hard job, either Afghanistan, the Environment, Childcare, Health care, etc. etc.

There are a great many potential linkages that the Conservatives might be able to exploit. Yes the Liberals have a formidible machine, and lots of allies like the MSM, but I will guess that unless they have a clear objective (i.e. a real set of policies and a coherent platform) backed by a decicive leader, their next election will resemble the battle of the Somme (attacking for the sake of attacking, no clear objectives in mind, no exploitation plan).

Like Edward, I would like to see a mature political system in place, but I suspect that we will need a better people to get a better government (pace Bertolht Brecht)
 
I dunno .. but I do have a hypothesis ...

I am beginning to develop a sense that the Liberals are in a decline. A real strategic decline...

Many commentators are mentioning that Mr Harper is still not able to capture the imagination of the electorate. But every blade has two edges, I would respectfully submit that it is M Dion that is not able to capture the imagination of the electorate, but also the Liberals as a party and as a philosphy.

Two things.

First Mr Harper seems to be showing signs or morphing from a wonk to a leader. His stance on issues seems clear. Some people do not like it but a trend seems to be developing that people are willing to follow his leadership. This is a tenuous trend.

Nevertheless his changing image in the eyes of the electorate is rather fascinating, if incomplete.

Second I think the Liberals are at a loss. I think a_majoor's point here is prescient, to wit, that "their (the Liberals) next election will resemble the battle of the Somme (attacking for the sake of attacking, no clear objectives in mind, no exploitation plan)".

But why?

Well, they've run out of ideas.

We have the "Just Society" and now what??? Kyoto is finally emerging in the conscience of the people for what it is, a massive wealth transfer rip-off with about as much 'good' environmental stewardship as a poorly tuned Escalade. The social safety net does not work to any great degree because the vested interests (whether the industrial-medical complex, the unions or the woolly headed intelligentsia, or the latte sipping fishwives of Scollard St.) have run out of ideas as well. The world is a more nasty place since Lloyd Axworthy, and no, Pollyanna, Canada is not the world's peacekeeper...

The more and more I look at Jean Chretien the more and more I see Campbell-Bannerman, the more and more I look at Paul Martin the more and more I see H.H. Asquith. The more and more I look at Stephane Dion the more and more I see Herbert Samuel.

The times do not seem to fit great grandious schemes and M Dion does not seem, personally, to be able to capture the imagination. Trudeau had both, and the Liberals have been coasting on that, Mulroney backlash and a divided right for a long while now.

Look at the original article
. Stay in Kandahar til '09. But even then don't pull out. Stay if things calm down. If things don't calm down move to a quieter place. Hardly seems like they have a clear cut idea on this does it? Sounds to me a bit like "Conscription if necessary but not necessarily conscription"

Perhaps what we are seeing, without an admission, is that the Liberals are saying, as a group, "Well we really don't have any ideas, so we'll stand pat".

Besides, if Mr Harper is around in '09 and Kandahar is still a nasty place, do any of us think after 3 or 4 years in the "breach" that any PM would leave us there? Do we think, given the direction from our General's that we can sustain it?

The Liberals are rudderless and quite possibly in a strategic decline.

0.02, another $1.37 and you got a coffee outta the deal.
 
Dion is the best thing to happen to the Tory's. It's good to see the Liberals in a tail spin. So just sit back and enjoy the ride. If things keep going like they are the Liberals could make Kim Campbell look like a political genius.
 
flip-flop, flop-flip-spin, deny, whine, flop-flip, stutter, whine, yell, mumble, have temper tantruturm, miss oppurtunity, consult with spin doctors and party backers, spin, flop-flip-flop, whine....etc,etc

(Dion on a good day) ;D
 
cplcaldwell said:
The more and more I look at Stephane Dion the more and more I see Herbert Samuel.

0.02, another $1.37 and you got a coffee outta the deal.

I can't provide such an indepth analogy as you cplcadwell but as far as leadership material goes, every time I look at Stephane Dion or hear him speak I see a little boy who is on the verge of tears because the big bad mean bully stole his lunch money. Not at all leadership material. I'm no fan of the liberals but I could at least appreciate Chretien as a leader. A leader has to be the Leviathan or The Prince (while still working under the democratic guidelines of course). A leader has to have balls, guts, charisma, and a zeal to take on the entire opposition and even his own party if need be. Dion has none of those characteristics,  and even now Ignatief is starting to overshadow him as a Deputy.  So yes Dion is the greatest thing to happen to the Conservatives but they have to remember never to underestimate their enemy.
 
I agree that the Liberal Party is formidable and should not be underestimated.  Although politicians can argue about leaving Afghanistan in 2009, the chances of that happening are next to none.  There will be a reduced presence, however, due to the arrival of the Olympics in 2010 in Vancouver.  Although the security commitment will already be quite high for this event, another major terrorist event in the West, will increase the requirement for the Olympics.  In essence, the political party that wins the next election party has a get out of jail free card.  Reduced commitment in Afghanistan so that soldiers can be deployed to BC.  Then ramp back up in the fall of 2010.  Kandahar will not be the destination.  We will need to spend a few more million building another camp somewhere else in the country.
 
birdgunnnersrule said:
  Reduced commitment in Afghanistan so that soldiers can be deployed to BC. 

I call BS.  The Canadian Forces will NOT be doing security for the Olympics at the expense of foreign ops.  Our armed forces aren't built to conduct that kind of operation: the RCMP and other police services are.

To stay on track, well, M. Dion and Mr. Kennedy pulled off a great victory at the convention, because Ignatieff was too "blue" for them.  Too bad for them.  C'est la vie.
 
Colin P said:
flip-flop, flop-flip-spin, deny, whine, flop-flip, stutter, whine, yell, mumble, have temper tantruturm, miss oppurtunity, consult with spin doctors and party backers, spin, flop-flip-flop, whine....etc,etc

(Dion on a good day) ;D

You forgot, "IT ISN'T FAIR!"
 
birdgunnnersrule said:
  We will need to spend a few more million building another camp somewhere else in the country.

CFB Chilliwack? Stupidest move DND and the Fiberals motiviating the whole mess ever made. Closing CFB Ottawa ranks second.
 
Seen, I got wrapped up in your discussion re Olympics.

Watch and wait I guess to see what direction the government takes their foreign and military policy post 2009. Building in yet another loc would be very very expensive.

As for Afghan bases I do not think we will ever know how much Camp Julien cost, or how much it should have cost....I suppose the ends justify the means as it was a pretty complete and comfotable facility, all things considered, IMHO
 
The Liberals have one idea.

The liberal party MUST form the government.

This attitude of entitlement explains the corruption.

As long as they ( the liberal party) think we ( the citizens) work for them and not the other way around they have NO business forming a government.

The wishy washy stuff is proof that they are trying to use polls to gain influence.
No need for principals or values.

By my reckoning, Mr Harper has been the first honest prime minister we've had
since Trudeau.( not that I would would want him back ).

I don't think the liberal philosophy is all wrong - just the current practitioners.






 
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