CAN-USA Tariff Strife (split from various pol threads)

[Altair]

We definatly should do this. It should simply be spread out across the country and not centered in one geographic region.

We wont overcome regionalism by maintaining the status quo. Maybe we dont want to...

I get that you are a big proponent of pan Canadianism.

But given the nature of market forces, manufacturing hubs, logistics corridors, and provincial fiefdoms, its not going to happen. And it probably doesn't need to.

Not unless we are willing to spend a hell of a lot more in terms of subsidies to prop up naturally inefficient industries across the country. At least oil and gas is profitable, propping up manufacturing across Canada just because is going to cost a hell of a lot more with a hell of lot less in return.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I get that you are a big proponent of pan Canadianism.

But given the nature of market forces, manufacturing hubs, logistics corridors, and provincial fiefdoms, its not going to happen. And it probably doesn't need to.

Not unless we are willing to spend a hell of a lot more in terms of subsidies to prop up naturally inefficient industries across the country. At least oil and gas is profitable, propping up manufacturing across Canada just because is going to cost a hell of a lot more with a hell of lot less in return.

Like I said, maybe we dont want to...

And also like I said elsewhere, my daughter was born a Canadian I highly doubt she will leave this world as one.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Canadians are regionally focused.

Youd get more traction for the manufacturing sector if you diversified its locations. Get some in the prairies and the Maritimes. Things will change.

While I agree in principle, in practicality that won't ever work. No one in the US does any manufacturing in the US Great Plains - North/South Dakota, Iowa, Montana and no one in the US does any manufacturing in Maine or Vermont, New Hampshire. The population centers aren't there, the transportation grids are aren't there and finally the labour resources aren't there. If it doesn't happen in the US, it won't happen here for the same exact reasons.

I, grudgingly, have alot more respect for Quebec based companies because they overwhelmingly rely alot less on the US markets/expertise to 'save' them. In Ontario the vast majority of locally founded companies over the decades have always taken the easy way out by selling/integrating into the US market and then when scale becomes an issue or a factor, they simply sell out to the bigger US firm, who in turn moves the majority of the mgmt/decision making roles out of Canada to the US or elsewhere.

 

[Altair]

Like I said, maybe we dont want to...

And also like I said elsewhere, my daughter was born a Canadian I highly doubt she will leave this world as one.

I was born a Quebecer, I will leave the world as a Ontarian.

Just because someone moves away doesn't mean one has to move out of Canada.

And as we find out every time something kicks off in the world, just because someone doesnt live in Canada doesnt mean they give up their passport.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I was born a Quebecer, I will leave the world as a Ontarian.

Just because someone moves away doesn't mean one has to move out of Canada.

And as we find out every time something kicks off in thw world, just because someone doesnt live in Canada doesnt mean they give up their passport.

Not my point at all.

 

[QV]

Not my point at all.

I wouldn't be upset if my next passport was for the United Countries of North America. But it looks like this Gov prefers we be the 28th member of the EU instead...

 

[Altair]

I wouldn't be upset if my next passport was for the United Countries of North America. But it looks like this Gov prefers we be the 28th member of the EU instead...

I thought we weren't allowed to make 51st state comments.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I wouldn't be upset if my next passport was for the United Countries of North America. But it looks like this Gov prefers we be the 28th member of the EU instead...

I'm not so keen to have Mexico as a partner.

 

[QV]

I'm not so keen to have Mexico as a partner.

Ack - I get it. This plan would need a lot of work.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'm not so keen to have Mexico as a partner.

Turks and Cacaos ?

We deserve somewhere warm and sunny to use our Canadian Tire money no ?

 

[GR66]

You want the Maritimes to have a large and competitive high value-added manufacturing base that doesn't rely on government subsidies to survive?

Grow the population to 10 million, quadruple the capacity of the Ports of Halifax and St. John as well as the cargo capacity of the international airports, improve the road and rail links to the US to allow more volume of goods to be moved, secure cheap electrical supply to feed the base, etc.

Like it or not density and proximity do matter in economies of scale. There is a reason that the Canadian automotive sector is centered on the Toronto-Windsor corridor...Detroit. That's the center of gravity of the North American market. You're not going to have a car plant in Fredericton or Saskatoon because it doesn't make any sense economically (unless you want to heavily subsidize them...forever).

That doesn't mean that the less populous regions and those that are further away from the large US centers can't support some regional manufacturing or become "Centers of Excellence" for specific industries that make sense for their region, but unless you totally want to scrap the concept of global trade (and all the advantages that brings) then you have to focus on where you can legitimately be competitive.

All that being said, I 100% agree that we should focus on moving up the value chain from raw resource exporting. Keep in mind though that as a small country (population-wise) we have to target these items for the export market because domestic demand in many cases won't be sufficient to support the required levels of production to be efficient and competitive. Also, there are already existing suppliers and supply chains in these markets that we'd have to replace...so be prepared to subsidize these industries until they are established and become competitive.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You want the Maritimes to have a large and competitive high value-added manufacturing base that doesn't rely on government subsidies to survive?

Grow the population to 10 million, quadruple the capacity of the Ports of Halifax and St. John as well as the cargo capacity of the international airports, improve the road and rail links to the US to allow more volume of goods to be moved, secure cheap electrical supply to feed the base, etc.

Like it or not density and proximity do matter in economies of scale. There is a reason that the Canadian automotive sector is centered on the Toronto-Windsor corridor...Detroit. That's the center of gravity of the North American market. You're not going to have a car plant in Fredericton or Saskatoon because it doesn't make any sense economically (unless you want to heavily subsidize them...forever).

That doesn't mean that the less populous regions and those that are further away from the large US centers can't support some regional manufacturing or become "Centers of Excellence" for specific industries that make sense for their region, but unless you totally want to scrap the concept of global trade (and all the advantages that brings) then you have to focus on where you can legitimately be competitive.

All that being said, I 100% agree that we should focus on moving up the value chain from raw resource exporting. Keep in mind though that as a small country (population-wise) we have to target these items for the export market because domestic demand in many cases won't be sufficient to support the required levels of production to be efficient and competitive. Also, there are already existing suppliers and supply chains in these markets that we'd have to replace...so be prepared to subsidize these industries until they are established and become competitive.

I am reminded that the folks who filled many (most ?) of the manufacturing jobs were come from aways... Much like Fort Mac now.

People follow opportunity.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Turks and Cacaos ?

We deserve somewhere warm and sunny to use our Canadian Tire money no ?

I think that those islands would be way too small to be able to accommodate 41m people trying to stake out their beach towels. Why not try for Belize instead? They speak English already, much bigger place, much larger coastline. Need to secure the land borders with Mexico, but hey, a tropic posting their for the CAF would beat Inuvik and Iqaluit right?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think that those islands would be way too small to be able to accommodate 41m people trying to stake out their beach towels. Why not try for Belize instead? They speak English already, much bigger place, much larger coastline. Need to secure the land borders with Mexico, but hey, a tropic posting their for the CAF would beat Inuvik and Iqaluit right?

Im really just being selfish. But HMC Dockyard Belize City Chief does have a nice ring to it

The Army can go live in the jungles, let them have the borders. Gross.

 

[Altair]

You want the Maritimes to have a large and competitive high value-added manufacturing base that doesn't rely on government subsidies to survive?

Grow the population to 10 million, quadruple the capacity of the Ports of Halifax and St. John as well as the cargo capacity of the international airports, improve the road and rail links to the US to allow more volume of goods to be moved, secure cheap electrical supply to feed the base, etc.

Like it or not density and proximity do matter in economies of scale. There is a reason that the Canadian automotive sector is centered on the Toronto-Windsor corridor...Detroit. That's the center of gravity of the North American market. You're not going to have a car plant in Fredericton or Saskatoon because it doesn't make any sense economically (unless you want to heavily subsidize them...forever).

That doesn't mean that the less populous regions and those that are further away from the large US centers can't support some regional manufacturing or become "Centers of Excellence" for specific industries that make sense for their region, but unless you totally want to scrap the concept of global trade (and all the advantages that brings) then you have to focus on where you can legitimately be competitive.

All that being said, I 100% agree that we should focus on moving up the value chain from raw resource exporting. Keep in mind though that as a small country (population-wise) we have to target these items for the export market because domestic demand in many cases won't be sufficient to support the required levels of production to be efficient and competitive. Also, there are already existing suppliers and supply chains in these markets that we'd have to replace...so be prepared to subsidize these industries until they are established and become competitive.

If we were not willing as a country to fund bombardier to keep them competitive against embraer, airbus and Boeing, we aren't going to support whatever new industries we think we want in all regions in the country subsidizing them in perpetuity.

Canadians are cheap and dont like the flashy subsidies. We tolerate the 30b in subsidies to oil and gas because they happen in the background and oil and gas is generally profitable, neither of which would be true for these nascent manufactures.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Im really just being selfish. But HMC Dockyard Belize City Chief does have a nice ring to it

The Army can go live in the jungles, let them have the borders. Gross.

Perfect place to run Op Carribe from right?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Im really just being selfish. But HMC Dockyard Belize City Chief does have a nice ring to it

The Army can go live in the jungles, let them have the borders. Gross.

Also, us taking over Belize might give the Americans a pause on their need for Greenland. I mean, they take Alaska and gain most of its coastline to box us in from the West, we take Belize and start to box them in from the south-east....

 

[Halifax Tar]

Perfect place to run Op Carribe from right?

I think our hemisphere is where I would like to see us concentrate more. I also think getting rid of CFS Bermuda was short sighted.

A sustained and strong RCN and RCAF presence in the Caribbean is something I could support.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Because we add minimum to no value in any of these goods. No intellectual value. We let others add that value.

We don't "let" others add that value. We just don't compete effectively. If someone else is going to buy our raw materials and turn out finished products cheaper than we will, someone else is likely to end up with the contracts.

Whether Canadians can compete effectively and efficiently depends on personal expectations, and how the governments regulate enterprises.

Reading and watching commentary across the years, it is clear that too many people spend too much time wondering why someone just doesn't "do something". Do they even understand the rules of engagement? If they understand, are they prepared to make changes that will make Canadian enterprises more competitive? I can guess that the answer to almost every proposal will be "oh, we can't change that".

 

[Czech_pivo]

I think our hemisphere is where I would like to see us concentrate more. I also think getting rid of CFS Bermuda was short sighted.

A sustained and strong RCN and RCAF presence in the Caribbean is something I could support.

Surprisingly in some pockets of the Caribbean Canada actually has a significant presence and historical connection (how many from the Caribbean joined the CDN military during WWII?). It makes complete sense for us to have a larger, more permanent presence there.