Canada eyeing reservists to bolster force in Afghanistan

[AJC]

Good question. I think that if the reserve force is to be a viable part of the CF it must be able to easily augment as well as provide the basis for mobilization. The requirement to augment Reg F units occur in most trades and certainly in Cbt Arms. Unless Reg F can stand on its own numbers wise, and maybe when the pipes start flowing soldiers again they will be able to, they will req augmentees. I suggest that if we need a "Recce" unit then they should have the compatible equipment to aid in trg compatability and negate the requirement for emergency PCF cycles. LFRR still hasn't changed the Orbat so I guess units stay as they are. I have an opinion on that one too, but the adults on the Rideau will make that decision.
In the interest of retention, nothing, not pensions, pay, cool clothes, lunch money, or anything else, beats and AFV and bullets.
This is not an Armd issue. There have been comments along the same lines about Infantry and LAV Trg. If the equipment exisited at units at the sub-sub-unit level, PCF courses were run, and CMTC was utilized as they do down south, this would not be a big deal, we did it before. Issue becomes, that with bigger more complicated gear comes a requirement for more courses, more man-days, and more ammo.
I guess it all depends on whether we are going to take things serious or not. 

 

[orange.paint]

Good question. I think that if the reserve force is to be a viable part of the CF it must be able to easily augment as well as provide the basis for mobilization. The requirement to augment Reg F units occur in most trades and certainly in Cbt Arms. Unless Reg F can stand on its own numbers wise, and maybe when the pipes start flowing soldiers again they will be able to, they will req augmentees. I suggest that if we need a "Recce" unit then they should have the compatible equipment to aid in trg compatability and negate the requirement for emergency PCF cycles. LFRR still hasn't changed the Orbat so I guess units stay as they are. I have an opinion on that one too, but the adults on the Rideau will make that decision.
In the interest of retention, nothing, not pensions, pay, cool clothes, lunch money, or anything else, beats and AFV and bullets.
This is not an Armd issue. There have been comments along the same lines about Infantry and LAV Trg. If the equipment exisited at units at the sub-sub-unit level, PCF courses were run, and CMTC was utilized as they do down south, this would not be a big deal, we did it before. Issue becomes, that with bigger more complicated gear comes a requirement for more courses, more man-days, and more ammo.
I guess it all depends on whether we are going to take things serious or not. 

I agree completely with your comments.All except the LAV3 Trg for infantry.Although this would play into what you were talking about for retention,infantry are still trade equivalent as a LIB.PCF courses are not enough in my opinion,they need the kit.Excellent idea in reference to AFV=retention.It also reflected on ourside when the RCD lost the tanks,proably on the reserve side when they lost the cougar as well.Guys don't join up Armd to drive green civilian pattern trucks.

What sells better:

"joining the armd res you will do recce tactics aboard a G-wagon.Which is a civilian truck with green paint.You will never deploy as a recce crewman"
or
"Joining the armd res you will do recce tactic aboard a coyote recce vehicle,equipped with surv technology and protected by a 25mm gaingun.After trade qualification it is possible to deploy as a recce soldier with one of the three regular amrd units across the country"

Good point AJC.

 

[KevinB]

Will it would be nice -- it comes down to capital equipment dollars.

However the fact of the matter comes down to that for most operations reservist units are a poor bang for buck.
Even if a few reservists are trained to deploy - does it really justify a few $3 million Coyotes for that unit

I agree that it would be great to see if we had a 100% compatible force.

CMTC issues should be made available for this -- but regular units are not full of kit either...
 

 

[geo]

.... ahhhh... the dreaded Fleet management system raises it's head

The point I was trying to make was that
You can train reserve infantrymen in their trade - with or without the LAVs and the fancy kit
You can train reserve gunners in their trade with mortars and 105mm guns
you can train reserve sappers in their trade with "most" of their kit

you can't train armoured tankers or Recce guys without the necessary rolling stock... what is one to do?  what are the options with what we have in hand right this second?

 

[KevinB]

GEO -- the answer I keep coming up with it

1) reroll
2) reroll
3) reroll

 

[mudrecceman]

There was noise at one point of all Res Armd Recce units going into the CBRN side.  I guess that died and went away.

FWIW, we used to do as much dismounted as mounted.  There are things you can do to get around equip shortfalls to continue on trng the troops.

I can't speak for the units outside of LFAA, but I feel safe to say the Res Armoured world is probably still not 100% after the re-roll of the Sabre Sqn's to Recce Sqn's.  Huge delta there in the skill sets and leadership at all levels. 

My old unit has sent guys to FRY in "non Black Hat" rolls, there are a handful or more in TF as I type.  There has been talk for, well 17 years that I was in Recce of "re-rolling" "rebadging" and all that stuff.  Until the ink is drying on the msg ordering it, I wouldn't hold my breathe on the re-rolling of the entire Pres Armd Recce world...

From what I heard one summer in the late 90's from a friend who was RETS SSM...the re-roll of the Elgin's to Egineers left LOTS to be desired in the level they could perform in the then-Fd Engineer role...specifically the NCOs who were up at CFSME instructing at RETS. 

The issue with the Reg/Res Armd Recce world is the equipment.  We just didn't have Coyote and would never be able to train properly on it.  BUT we DID focus on the REST of the Armd Recce world.  "Do what you can with what you got".

And we did it pretty damn well, imho.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Armored should take over for convoy escort IMO.

 

[John Nayduk]

Amen brother.  +1

 

[geo]

It is certain that reroling someone to another trade, NCOs & Offrs of one MOC doing their damndest to applying a skill set they know little about is, for a lack of a better word: a challenge? interesting (as in old chinese curse)?  There is no doubt that reroling the Elgins to Combat Engineers was not an easy thing - for anyone... The reserve worlds 35-40 Class A mandays a year limit made it that much harder - so competence was something developed over many years... are they there yet? Pert much.

When the Iltis was withdrawn and the GWagon was delayed, the RECCE units went "dismounted"... "à la Infantryish"... and they did a fairly decent job of it.  Are they destined to be the Reg unit's asssault troops? (or is the Infantry doing that?)

Is the infantry doing convoy escorts? (or should the Res RECCE guys be doing that?)

Until such time as the gov't choses to provide us with the equipment necessary to train and maintain real Res RECCE units,
I would propose that the Res RECCE units and the Res Infantry units should be working a lot closer together - become a hybrid of / & with each other... this is the future as I see it... confusing though it may be IMHO!

CHIMO!

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I've made similar suggestions in the past with respect to the convoy escort task for the Armoured Reserve Units.  The equipment bill is feasible and it is already in the skill set/task list.  A "troop" could be four vehicles and each one would be the integral fighting power for a CSS convoy in a theatre of operation.  You could keep the troop at eight, I suppose, and have two "teams" in that troop.

The point here would be that they wouldn't view convoy escort as a secondary duty, but rather as their primary task.  It is a relevant and essential task required overseas.  The door would be left open for the return to the full range of recce tasks in the future.

 

[geo]

From my perspective, your troop would have RECCE/Escort black hats AND assault green infantry assault troops to pound the ground, close with and take it to the Enemy.

So... 4 Recce vehicles & possible 2 section/assault vehicles integrated into every convoy.
Is it a Troop? Is it a Platoon?.... Call it a "Toon" (JK) and let's get started on a training plan.

 

[John Nayduk]

Consider that the RG31 is not on anybody's scale of issue, everyone who drives them needs to be trained, reg or reserve.  It's feasible to have the reserve black hatters use these on operations along with the Bison (some of us can still drive them).  Have the infantry guys in the bisons to close with the ....  The black hatters engage with the C6..
My 2 cents.

 

[KevinB]

I dont think the Bison is an effective escort vehicle, nor the RG31.

 

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think we should turf the bison asap.  I can't count how many times a bison on our convoy broke down on us in downtown khandahar or in ambush/ied ally. Their just too old.  I think there is a temptation to use them as armored fighting vehicles because of the c6 mounted on them but their arcs of fire are very poor for that.

That said the room for personal being transfered from base to base was simply vital. More than once we've had to "leave someone behind" because we ran out of room to pack them in on the convoys.  Convoys need a bison like vehicle.

Convoy protection seems like the perfect niche for armored reserves or armored recce (not exactly sure what armored recce is capable of?).
Basically you're taking a platoons worth of guys, putting them in RG31s and escorting vehicles all over.  The battle group was apparently extremely happy when the force protection platoon took over their convoy escort task (complete) towards the end of roto1. It freed up a platoon + worth of lavs3's.

I don't remember what armored reserves did on previous tours much or even roto 2. They always seem stuck as iltis or g wagon drivers, filling in spots here and there never as a unit.  Putting them on convoy duty would free up infantry reserves to augment the infantry companies further.

 

[orange.paint]

We did quite few convoy escorts in Bosnia.(I know its different).
When we removed a certain capability from the Serb sites,the truckers loaded it up and we escorted them to their final destination.This tasking lasted over a week.yes armd recce is very good at this task.

 

[KevinB]

We did quite few convoy escorts in Bosnia.(I know its different).
When we removed a certain capability from the Serb sites,the truckers loaded it up and we escorted them to their final destination.This tasking lasted over a week.yes armd recce is very good at this task.

Dude -- if you know its different why make the comparison?

  My opinion that an ESCORT force should be capable of armed escrot AND close with and destroying an ambushing force
  - since if all you do is drive down the road and fire a few rounds back - it allow the enemy to regroup and do the same damn thing over and over again (and getting better at it) -- The US Army learned that lesson the hard way.
Quite Simply Armoured Recce units (and that is Regular Force Coyote units) do not have that capability to dismount and fight thru --

 

[Journeyman]

Quite Simply Armoured Recce units do not have that capability to dismount and fight thru --

tick tick tick ....you know one of the "old" black-hatters is going to reinvent Assault Troop; it's only a matter of time 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

tick tick tick ....you know one of the "old" black-hatters is going to reinvent Assault Troop; it's only a matter of time 

.....and why not? I heard (don't know if it's true) that the PPCLI were re-inventing the Pioneers. Good for the goose and all that.

 

[brihard]

Dude -- if you know its different why make the comparison?

  My opinion that an ESCORT force should be capable of armed escrot AND close with and destroying an ambushing force
  - since if all you do is drive down the road and fire a few rounds back - it allow the enemy to regroup and do the same damn thing over and over again (and getting better at it) -- The US Army learned that lesson the hard way.
Quite Simply Armoured Recce units (and that is Regular Force Coyote units) do not have that capability to dismount and fight thru --

If I read this correctly, you seem to be suggesting co-locating a fighting patrol with a convoy. The force gets bumped, the actual convoy packet carries on (with a self-sufficient force protection element) while a platoon (or whatever) of assault elements pursue and destroy the ambushing force, and then either marries up with the convoy a bit farther on or makes its own way back to a base? If this is what you're suggesting, it makes some sense from my (admittedly very amateur) view. A two part convoy escort as it were; one that stays with it no matter what, and one that can detach and assault targets of opportunity.

Am I correct in interpreting that currently our main tactic is to simply run and gun through the ambush, escape the threat zone and consolidate x distance farther on, and not pursuing the enemy presence with assets on hand? (Slap me down if any of this borders on opsec, of course.)

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't think the convoy escort guys should dismount and fight through for a number of reasons.

If they leave the CSS callsigns then they are practically defenseless.

We don't have the manpower for that at all.
Unless we had a dedicated QRF platoon organic to each convoy (remember theres two teams) the convoy not including the drivers and gunners who remain with the vehicle won't have enough guys to do a thing. The CSS dismounts woulnt be any help.  
With HLTA and other taskings we're already hard up for guys as is. Maybe if we started sending over more troops. Security platoons or something?

The taliban know how long it takes air support to show up so we can't count on that when convoys are hit so all we have to fight with is what we bring on the convoy.  

The best thing we can do on convoy escort is to lay down as much firepower as we can and push on out of the kill zone.