Canada eyeing reservists to bolster force in Afghanistan

[brihard]

Unless we had a dedicated QRF platoon organic to each convoy

That's exactly what I think I-6 was getting at, in concept if not in details. I have no idea how many convoys we run, so I don't know how feasible it would be. Perhaps QRF platoons could be attached on a random basis, as manpower and the larger tactical situation dictates?

 

[KevinB]

Well...

Ideally the CSS elements should be able to dismount and fight.
  Everyman a rifleman.

However - the convoy CSS can FIX the enemy -- and the more robust elements of the Escort can DESTROY.

Simply running away from the ENEMY ambush does no one any good.

 

[geo]

With the prospect of IEDs and VBIEDs, having the CSS vehicles standing their ground while the gunners give covering fire (so black/green hatters can do their thing) sounds great except vital supplies sitting around would make a super attractive target that the TB would ultimately prize as a target.... In sha Allah - the next time they try to do an ambush... so

Some LAVs + Assault troop to close and engage on the ground - yes.
Backup assault troop QRF (w/ some LAVs)ready to scream down the highway and relieve the convoy escort duty....

 

[orange.paint]

Some LAVs + Assault troop to close and engage on the ground - yes.
Backup assault troop QRF (w/ some LAVs)ready to scream down the highway and relieve the convoy escort duty....

Sounds a lot like we had in Bosnia on our convoy escorts.Almost sounds like how we are taught on courses.
However I shouldnt make comparrisions.As I have not been to Afganistan.

 

[orange.paint]

Overwatch along the way....MP's for blocking/clearing laterals.
If we get bumped in this location 22 will engage while they convoy keep moving ahead under 21....

 

[KevinB]

geo -- they dont HAVE to stay static -- but they have to be able to fight.
  Driving by being a tourist is useless.


RCAC - your the one who made the the comment first -- since you qualifed the statement that you knew Afghan was not Bosnia - you went back and made two direct comparrisons.

  I'm all for the reserve armoured units finding a role for themselves -- but I for one beleive that a MSEOp should have the capability to deal with an ambush.

 

[geo]

I6  Agreed

I was only talking about what would usually happen with non-combat arms... instinct tells em to do one of two things.... scram  OR pullover... regardless, the fighting is perceived to be someone else's problem.... which it isn't.

 

[orange.paint]

My question I-6 is you said Mseops should be able to defend themselves.How?With what weapons and veh?Can you explain a little how you see the convoy working out a little better?Do you think MSEOp's should handle the convoy themselves?Their own "Assult troop"and convoy heavyfire vehicles?I'm a little confused on how your convoy would look.

RCAC - your the one who made the the comment first -- since you qualified the statement that you knew Afghan was not Bosnia - you went back and made two direct comparisons.

I said that due to the fact someone would proably come in and say "well that was Bosnia,not Afghanistan"which is true.However I'm using my limited experience from a different time.Even though the danger level was low (some say non existant)the convoy commander still has to plan as if it was war.Complacence kills.

no malice direct towards you I-6,just covering my ass/making a comparison:
com·par·i·son      (kəm-pār'ĭ-sən)  Pronunciation Key 
n.  The act of comparing or the process of being compared.
A statement or estimate of similarities and differences

 

[armyvern]

I6  Agreed

I was only talking about what would usually happen with non-combat arms... instinct tells em to do one of two things.... scram  OR pullover... regardless, the fighting is perceived to be someone else's problem.... which it isn't.

Agree with this assessment wholeheartedly. It's in the training. It needs to be corrected in the trg as well. Many exercises spent driving through, over and out. Not enough time or instruction on how to deal with the shit once we dismounted the vehicles if we had to. This needs to be driven home into the psyche of the CSS troops, how the hell to fight back because you're not always going to be able to execute the now-learned ambush drills as per the book. And rightly, we shouldn't always go with escaping and evasion, sometimes the SOBs just need to be dealt with; and if I'm there, I should damn well know what to do...instinctively.

 

[KevinB]

geo -- agreed on that issue.
 What HAS to happen is 1) weapon competancy in the CSS (and cbt arms) 2) instilling a warrior mindset and the skills to kill the enemy in the CSS.

RCAC -- in my ideal world - the MSE Op could manage a defensive battle in their convoy, and have a limited counter attack ability if required.  I would like to see a escort force attached as well - one that could persecute enemy attacks to make them regret attacking...  BUT an escort that if was detached in 1) a prolonged complex ambush was robust enough to sustain itself 2) did not strip the convoy of defensive ability (and limited combat ability)

I dont consider the Bison or RG31 more than any taxi system -- they are not fighting vehicle.
 So that leaves LAVIII and Coyote as an escort vehicle.

So - It MAY be worthwhile training armoured personnel in the LAVIII and Coyote -- and using reserve Inf to GIB the LAVIII's for combat escort
 IF they do that 1) It will require increased time prior to deployment to run PCF's and training
  2) they would NOT be part of the Inf/Armd Line Coy/Sqn's - but Admin Coy - and not to be used (unless dire necessity as cbt team assets)


 

 

[KevinB]

I see a fleet management share with a CMTT as the only way to make this possible for the reserves.
  It also requires a GREAT deal of comittment from reservists to make this work.
 

 

[orange.paint]

RCAC -- in my ideal world - the MSE Op could manage a defensive battle in their convoy, and have a limited counter attack ability if required.  I would like to see a escort force attached as well - one that could persecute enemy attacks to make them regret attacking...  BUT an escort that if was detached in 1) a prolonged complex ambush was robust enough to sustain itself 2) did not strip the convoy of defensive ability (and limited combat ability)

Leopard 2's and lav 3's full of hard as **** infanteers? ;D With CSS troops laying down fire and contuning with the convoy,along with the other patrol of leo2's and lav's.

 

[KevinB]

A waste of assets IMHO
  The Combat team elements should be out prosecuting the fight -- convoys are ideally NOT routed thru known pockets of enemy resistance.

If you do that - you end up fighting a defensive war - or writing a book on how to lose a Counter Insurgency campaign.

 

[orange.paint]

But wouldnt a convoy be taking up to 8 cars (lav/coyote)out of the front anyway?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

At the risk of going further down this rabbit-hole, a CSS convoy (even with escorts) might find it best to fight its way out of the kill zone if all the vehicles are mobile instead of trying to assault the enemy.  The enemy has picked that spot and probably has you at a disadvantage if he knows his stuff (multiple fire teams with multiple support weapons with all the ranges known).  

Leaving the enemy alive to attack another day is a drawback of breaking clean (although you will be shooting back), but pushing a bad situation by assaulting may not be the best option for a convoy.  If I can get the vulnerable vehicles out of danger than I will most likely do that as a convoy commander in an ambush.  That being said, you might have to stay and fight it out and you must be prepared to do so regardless of MOC or equipment.  I would just prefer to keep the options open for the convoy commander (the old "situationally dependent" cop-out).

 

[KevinB]

R5 -- a tool in the toolbox.
  But IF in doubt attack -- always best to have the capable option.

RCAC - If we did it my way - it would be a seperate C/S 8 entity in an escort formation -- giving the Res Armd a role too 

 

[brihard]

I see a fleet management share with a CMTT as the only way to make this possible for the reserves.
  It also requires a GREAT deal of comittment from reservists to make this work.
 

FWIW, starting with TF 3-08, a number of us are going to be training for a full year (if not more) before deployment; they're setting up earlier 'streams' so that reservists can get the gucci courses (LAV, nyala, etc) prior to commencing pre deployment. I would suggest that with a year's workup and some experienced leadership, a mechanized 'assault' platoon to accompany convoys could work. Realistically, a year's fairly intense workup training should easily bring reservists to the necessary level for direct combat operations.

Another risk to factor in though is tactical predictability. We wouldn't want to dismount and fight through every ambush with this asset, as at some point they're gonna get smart and draw the QRF, via a seemingly weak ambush, into a defence in depth with enough fire power to splash a LAV and put some more faces on CBC the next day. The enemy is not stupid. A QRF attached to the convoy should not be an asset used all the time. Better to let some of them get away than to introduce predictability into our response that involves putting dismounted troops where the enemy knows they'll be.

I'm just hypothesizing and rambling here though, so I'll crawl back into my lane.

 

[geo]

Brihard.... I think I brought up that subject in an earlier post....
We will always have to expect our foes to learn from prior actions.... lessons learned, lessons learned.

The trick is to have a number of alternative responses, managed by a battle captain & his playbook.... Armoured tactics at their finest.

 

[Kiwi99]

Training any soldier on the LAV III or other vehicles and weappons is a reletively easy process.  Given enough time, instructor and equipment, anything is possible.  I love the way that we throw around the 'SOP' phrase whenever discussing drills.  Sure, in some areas a good SOP is a good thing, but in many areas there are no SOPs.  I like to call it the f**k factor, and we have all experianced it.  We can hash out ideas for convoy escort and fighting patterns till we are bue in the face, but it makes little difference.  Convoys must have inf support.  Why?  Because the CSS elements driving the trucks and other B vehs do not possess the skills to fight back against a determined attack.  That may be a brash comment, but it is fact.  I have seen it, so have many others.  Every ambush is different, both in size and setup.  Initiation signals vary, and as experiance in theaters like A-stan has shown, it is never just one ambush.  There is always another set within a km down the road.  Drills change as the situation changes.  If  a B veh is immobilised, if a LAV III gets taken out.  The priority is to get the supplies through to the other end, not killing the enemy.  
If ambushed at night, what then.  CSS trades are not trained to fight a battle at night, and there is mass confusion.  My experiance has been that if with CSS you keep moving if possible.  That being said, every soldier is a soldier first, tradesmen, driver, medic second.  And the fact that many CSS trades are not trained as rifleman first is our own fault.
Secondly, training soldiers on kit is easy.  We are training res on LAV right now.  But LAV is an extremyl perishable skill, and  there must b continuation training back in the units.
Remember, soldier first, everything else second.

 

[geo]

An SOP is only as good as it is known and understood by all the troops... New troops will not know the SOPs, they must learn the SOPs and learn the good and bad things that they bring with them.... you need time for all the new info to sink in... which is how this discussion got started in the 1st place..... time we don't always have.