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Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

It's optional for them too just as it is for us. Take a look at how many NATO countries sent forces to Afghanistan in support of the US to see just how many exercised that option.

The CCG doesn't need to go to Europe to count as a defence asset for NATO purposes. But CCG personnel need to be "trained in military tactics, are equipped as a military force, can operate under direct military authority in deployed operations, and can, realistically, be deployed outside national territory in support of a military force" in order to be count.

The point though isn't so much spread sheet accounting as it is to create a true military capability.

🍻
CCG barely has enough functioning assets to maintain their present workload and facing crewing issues as well. I suppose we can get the AOP's to start doing some lightweight plastic buoy tending.
 
Canada dipped below 1% in the final full year of the Harper government.
When GDP hit a local maximum. How odd.

The denominator matters. No-one should simply look at "% of GDP", especially for defence spending which is based on long-term planning windows. If we're going to do "2%" it will have to be relatively consistent, which should mean planning to go above 2% so that we remain at 2% if GDP surges.
 
Has anyone bothered to ask the Coast Guard what they think of this?
I'm wondering how many of these civil servants may decide to simply vote with their feet.
I suspect that a lot of them if they wanted to be in the Navy they would have joined the Navy.
Guess we'll find out.
Federal job opportunities for people less fussy about the political and social appearances of their employment, then.
 
We're in a seller's market for labour. News reports are chock-a-block with entreaties from everyone for more workers (somehow). This is likely to be a transient situation, but we'll be stuck with compensation changes for a long time if they turn out to be over-generous.
 
Would not that mission require an armed presence? Based on experiences transitioning other non-armed federal agencies to being armed, we could be up to a decade away from that capability.
Oh you and your realism…

But as both you and I have pointed out
it’s beyond simply being armed, as the RCMP doesn’t count either and they are armed LE. The requirement for the forces that are trained in military tactics, are equipped as a military force, can operate under direct military authority in deployed operations, and can, realistically, be deployed outside national territory in support of a military force.

So for non DoD entities it’s just the portion of their budget for the part of their department that do the above part.

It isn’t going to be quick or easy for Canada to move other departments into the 2%
 
Putting the Coast Guard under MND does not mean necessarily putting Harpoons on Coast Guard ships.

It may, it in fact, mean very little change to how the operate, day to day.

But, even if the Government decides to fully militarize the Coast Guard, that ain’t a Union call.

Managers have the right to manage. If employees don’t like it, they can find other jobs.

If I understand correctly CSE is also under the MND and I have not heard of them actively engaged overseas. They appear to do their bit for the 5 Eyes from within Canada.

The CCG currently operates 6 ancient offshore patrol vessels and 8 of 9 Hero class midshore patrol vessels. Those are all involved in enforcement activities, distinct from the navaids and research groups. That group could cross over into armed patrols, it would seem to me, with out a lot of angst. And as I previously noted, things like securing infrastructure, cables and pipelines, could be a non-combatant defence role well within the skill set of the CCG.

How about EOD/Mine-clearance?

One aspect that I still have difficulty with in this whole discussion is that if Poland or Denmark gets steam-rollered during an invasion they contribute to the defence of their neighbours by absorbing the shock. And that effort is a whole of government/whole of society enterprise.
The Danes and Poles don't have to deploy their citizens, their police, their border guards, their soldiers, for them to effectively contribute to the defence of NATO and their neighbours. They just have to defend themselves and co-ordinate their efforts with their neighbours.

Canada has always been seen a being outside of European concerns. It was decidedly an American concern. But nobody saw a realistic risk of NATO's enemies on Canadian soil. And certainly nobody saw that NATO enemies on Canadian soil might be a threat to NATO.

But.

Now Europe, largely with the arrival of the Swedes and Finns, has discovered that they have an exposed Arctic flank and that Canada is the linch pin between the defence of continental Europe and continental America. Canada is now seen in similar light to a continental country. Its home defence plays a role in the security of northern European countries just by denying its soil, its waters, its skies to NATO's adversaries. It is now important that Canada has the ability to defend itself and co-ordinates with both its American neighbours and it European neighbours.

Prior to the current period, in my view, everybody, Canadians included, assumed that the only contribution Canada could make was sending troops to Europe and securing the North Atlantic. Now the requirement has stretched further north into arctic waters and includes the Arctic Archipelago.

Securing those lands, waters and skies doesn't rely solely on uniformed military personnel. But those others, those civilians, are also contributing to the defence of Canada, and, indirectly, the defence of Europe. Just as their counter-parts do in Europe.

....

One other thing our friends and allies rely on us to do, is not supply safe-haven to people intent on weakening and disrupting, if not destroying, our friends and allies. And that is decidedly a civilian task that contributes to international defence.
 
Maybe.

I think of all sorts of containerized mission packages that, all they have to do is put them them on the back of their ships and sail around a piece of ocean that we tell them to.
Not to get too specific but would that make them a legitimate military target or would they always be such?
 
If I understand correctly CSE is also under the MND and I have not heard of them actively engaged overseas. They appear to do their bit for the 5 Eyes from within Canada.

The CCG currently operates 6 ancient offshore patrol vessels and 8 of 9 Hero class midshore patrol vessels. Those are all involved in enforcement activities, distinct from the navaids and research groups. That group could cross over into armed patrols, it would seem to me, with out a lot of angst. And as I previously noted, things like securing infrastructure, cables and pipelines, could be a non-combatant defence role well within the skill set of the CCG.

How about EOD/Mine-clearance?

One aspect that I still have difficulty with in this whole discussion is that if Poland or Denmark gets steam-rollered during an invasion they contribute to the defence of their neighbours by absorbing the shock. And that effort is a whole of government/whole of society enterprise.
The Danes and Poles don't have to deploy their citizens, their police, their border guards, their soldiers, for them to effectively contribute to the defence of NATO and their neighbours. They just have to defend themselves and co-ordinate their efforts with their neighbours.

Canada has always been seen a being outside of European concerns. It was decidedly an American concern. But nobody saw a realistic risk of NATO's enemies on Canadian soil. And certainly nobody saw that NATO enemies on Canadian soil might be a threat to NATO.

But.

Now Europe, largely with the arrival of the Swedes and Finns, has discovered that they have an exposed Arctic flank and that Canada is the linch pin between the defence of continental Europe and continental America. Canada is now seen in similar light to a continental country. Its home defence plays a role in the security of northern European countries just by denying its soil, its waters, its skies to NATO's adversaries. It is now important that Canada has the ability to defend itself and co-ordinates with both its American neighbours and it European neighbours.

Prior to the current period, in my view, everybody, Canadians included, assumed that the only contribution Canada could make was sending troops to Europe and securing the North Atlantic. Now the requirement has stretched further north into arctic waters and includes the Arctic Archipelago.

Securing those lands, waters and skies doesn't rely solely on uniformed military personnel. But those others, those civilians, are also contributing to the defence of Canada, and, indirectly, the defence of Europe. Just as their counter-parts do in Europe.

....

One other thing our friends and allies rely on us to do, is not supply safe-haven to people intent on weakening and disrupting, if not destroying, our friends and allies. And that is decidedly a civilian task that contributes to international defence.
Well said .
 
Would not that mission require an armed presence? Based on experiences transitioning other non-armed federal agencies to being armed, we could be up to a decade away from that capability.
That's what the armed US CG team is for that is usually embedded on a RCN ship. Simply insert an armed US CG team with the CCG ship, viola, all done.
 
I doubt that any potential opponents would would consider them to be anything other then a legitimate target.
Don't bother to use the word "legitimate" if the potential opponents you have in mind are equally likely to attack any illegitimate target that they think threatens their interests. Non-combatant status is a meaningless distinction to someone who doesn't respect it.
 
That's what the armed US CG team is for that is usually embedded on a RCN ship. Simply insert an armed US CG team with the CCG ship, viola, all done.
No - please look at the NATO actual requirements.

The USCG LEDET stuff isn’t related to 2%’isms, it is solely to deal with the Legal aspects of search and seizure, chain of custody and bringing stuff to court.

The USN does VBSS all the time without USCG LEDET’s outside of American waters.
 
Oh you and your realism…

But as both you and I have pointed out
it’s beyond simply being armed, as the RCMP doesn’t count either and they are armed LE. The requirement for the forces that are trained in military tactics, are equipped as a military force, can operate under direct military authority in deployed operations, and can, realistically, be deployed outside national territory in support of a military force.

So for non DoD entities it’s just the portion of their budget for the part of their department that do the above part.

It isn’t going to be quick or easy for Canada to move other departments into the 2%
I’m beginning to think that adding the CCG is just an exercise in fooling Canadian rubes who can’t tell the difference between a frigate and an icebreaker that we’re meeting our 2%. Our allies won’t buy it for a hot second.
 
No - please look at the NATO actual requirements.

The USCG LEDET stuff isn’t related to 2%’isms, it is solely to deal with the Legal aspects of search and seizure, chain of custody and bringing stuff to court.

The USN does VBSS all the time without USCG LEDET’s outside of American waters.
So using a Kingston class ship with a USCG LEDET aboard for Op Caribe counts towards the NATO 2% but if we used a CCG ship with a USCG LEDET detachment aboard for Op Caribe that would not count towards the NATO 2% - is that correct?
 
Putting the Coast Guard under MND does not mean necessarily putting Harpoons on Coast Guard ships.

It may, it in fact, mean very little change to how the operate, day to day.

But, even if the Government decides to fully militarize the Coast Guard, that ain’t a Union call.

Managers have the right to manage. If employees don’t like it, they can find other jobs.
The right to manage doesn’t mean the right to violate collective agreements. I don’t know what the coast guards collective agreements look like, but depending on what is in there it can definitely limit what management can or cannot do.

Such a radical change at the minimum could be considered constructive dismissal resulting in potentially huge severance payments to anyone who choses to walk away. It isn’t as easy as snapping your fingers and people have to do what you say. It isn’t the military.

Plus all those who go, don’t like it leave seem to be shocked when people do and they can’t replace them. I have been watching the military do it for the last decade and a half.
 
So using a Kingston class ship with a USCG LEDET aboard for Op Caribe counts towards the NATO 2% but if we used a CCG ship with a USCG LEDET detachment aboard for Op Caribe that would not count towards the NATO 2% - is that correct?
True, because the CCG ship and crew is not "forces that are trained in military tactics, are equipped as a military force, can operate under direct military authority in deployed operations, and can, realistically, be deployed outside national territory in support of a military force", but Kingston Class MCDV is.

This whole exercise is smoke and mirrors designed to fool the public and NATO into believing we are doing something, like the "RCMP Blackhawks" that fly low over my house every few days crewed by civilians and not a cop onboard.
 
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I would be more interested in seeing what the total CAF increase is for the year.
We recruited 7000 but how many personnel did the CAF increase by? It’s not 7000, I would guess it is less than 300 once you account for our yearly attrition.
 

I would be more interested in seeing what the total CAF increase is for the year.
We recruited 7000 but how many personnel did the CAF increase by? It’s not 7000, I would guess it is less than 300 once you account for our yearly attrition.

You loose ~1/3rd of new members in the first year
@dapaterson might be able to provide better #’s

But your actually only putting around 4,600 new bodies into the system.

Then what’s the loss from retirement, end of contract releases, medical etc?

I suspect it’s more than that 4,600 number.
 
During the GWOT era the CAFs own statistics showed we recruited in the 6500 to 6800 personnel a year which resulted in actual growth of around 150-200 pers a year.
 
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