Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[SeaKingTacco]

Why is there such a reluctance to pay out annual leave?

Because it monetizes something that is not assigned (in DND budget terms) a value (if everyone uses all their leave every year, their is no accrued financial penalty to DND). Once a payout is granted, the money has to be found somewhere to be converted to CAF pay and then paid out.

I see both sides of it.

 

[captloadie]

As much as I would prefer the option of a 20% pay increase across the board, as it would benefit my situation the most, there is plenty of historical data to show what happens when we just give people fistfuls of cash and nothing else. If you look at the small and medium size communities where the CAF is one of the larger employers, and has a larger impact on the local economy, raising pay and allowances doesn't put those individuals ahead in most respects. It just raises the prices on everything, especially things like housing, daycare, and F150s.

If the CAF is serious about actually helping its members, fund better, exclusive, daycare for CAF families to allow spouses to work or improve their education. Find a way to provide a medical clinic for member's dependents, even if it means only having a core staff of nurses, NPs, social workers etc and MDs who can consult via video if needed. Find a real solution to the housing problem, which isn't giving everyone unlimited access to cheap rent in PMQs for their career. Help individuals out in the beginning, sure, but make it clear the intent is to transition out of subsidized housing into the economy.

And before people jump on the "they move us so often we can't get into the market like everyone else" bandwagon, provide some stats on that. Sure, there are plenty of individuals who move quite often, but how many actually stay in one place for 5 or more years in places like Edmonton, the two coasts, Pet, Valcatraz? I also ask what individuals who come from the big cities were going to do if they hadn't joined the military? How were they going to afford rent or a new home in Toronto, Victoria, or Ottawa if they had gone with a different career choice? Yes, moving people does affect their ability to get into and stay in a housing market. Maybe that is the problem we should be looking at solving by throwing money at. Maybe apply an allowance like the Outcan shelter allowance to mortgages, where there is a split between what the member pays and the CAF pays, and when it comes time to sell the home, the profits or losses are also shared by both. And give individuals the option to opt in or out.

But in the end, just handing out raises or retention bonuses, or complicated allowances isn't going to fix the problem by themselves.

 

[captloadie]

Why is there such a reluctance to pay out annual leave?

Because it breeds abuse of the system, and puts the pressure on members not to take leave. How many individuals never had approved annual leave passes submitted in the days when there were no limits on carrying it over? How does an individual work 5 years in a row without taking a single annual day?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The problem we have run into with the idea of “exclusive” military run daycares or health care facilities for dependents is that both those things are provincially regulated. Up until recently, there has been great reluctance from most (any?) Provincial regulator to allow a carveout for DND to have exclusive rostering for military dependents on or near a military base. Especially if, in some locations, DND would end up stripping what little local medical/child care talent there is in an (often) small town to come work for us.

TL;DR- it can be a wicked problem

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Because it breeds abuse of the system, and puts the pressure on members not to take leave. How many individuals never had approved annual leave passes submitted in the days when there were no limits on carrying it over? How does an individual work 5 years in a row without taking a single annual day?

In the old days, it was not uncommon to see WOs and MWOs with hundreds of days of accumulated leave.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And before people jump on the "they move us so often we can't get into the market like everyone else" bandwagon, provide some stats on that. Sure, there are plenty of individuals who move quite often, but how many actually stay in one place for 5 or more years in places like Edmonton, the two coasts, Pet, Valcatraz? I also ask what individuals who come from the big cities were going to do if they hadn't joined the military? How were they going to afford rent or a new home in Toronto, Victoria, or Ottawa if they had gone with a different career choice? Yes, moving people does affect their ability to get into and stay in a housing market. Maybe that is the problem we should be looking at solving by throwing money at. Maybe apply an allowance like the Outcan shelter allowance to mortgages, where there is a split between what the member pays and the CAF pays, and when it comes time to sell the home, the profits or losses are also shared by both. And give individuals the option to opt in or out.

Or hire most people for 4-6 years, then kick 'em out with an education credit, so they don't have to stress about housing and daycare while serving.

The CAF probably shouldn't be a 'gubmint job for life', complete with golden handcuffs, for most people...

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Because it monetizes something that is not assigned (in DND budget terms) a value (if everyone uses all their leave every year, their is no accrued financial penalty to DND). Once a payout is granted, the money has to be found somewhere to be converted to CAF pay and then paid out.

I see both sides of it.

Throughout my career I supported or approved every legitimate request for a payout, as I knew that the Vote 1 money to pay for that was easy to find, and it struck me as a better use of those funds than simply turning them back in at the end of Fiscal.

 

[captloadie]

The problem we have run into with the idea of “exclusive” military run daycares or health care facilities for dependents is that both those things are provincially regulated. Up until recently, there has been great reluctance from most (any?) Provincial regulator to allow a carveout for DND to have exclusive rostering for military dependents on or near a military base. Especially if, in some locations, DND would end up stripping what little local medical/child care talent there is in an (often) small town to come work for us.

TL;DR- it can be a wicked problem

I don't disagree, but the issue isn't usually finding affordable daycare, its finding any daycare. In those areas, providing exclusive daycare would actually help the local situation rather than competing with it. And daycares can be lucrative. My wife runs a home daycare, and between what parents pay and what the Agency pays under the CWELCC, income generated is over 80K for just six kids. Yes there are expenses that bring that down, and for the hours she works and the effort she puts in, it isn't going to make her rich, but it is something.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Throughout my career I supported or approved every legitimate request for a payout, as I knew that the Vote 1 money to pay for that was easy to find, and it struck me as a better use of those funds than simply turning them back in at the end of Fiscal.

Like I said- I see both sides of the argument. As a first principle, our people should be afforded the time to take the leave they have earned. Sometimes, that is not possible. In which case it should be paid out as soon as possible, so as to not create a future liability at an often higher pay rate.

 

[MilEME09]

Find a real solution to the housing problem, which isn't giving everyone unlimited access to cheap rent in PMQs for their career. Help individuals out in the beginning, sure, but make it clear the intent is to transition out of subsidized housing into the economy.

And what about areas where the local market isn't priced to allow for your average MCpl or Sgt to buy? the biggest complaint I hear from reg force members every time I go to Borden to teach is the lack of affordable housing near base. Your average house starts at 700k most are in the 830-850k range. Most live 1.5h+ away from base to find something they can afford.

 

[Quirky]

Because it breeds abuse of the system, and puts the pressure on members not to take leave.

On the contrary, maybe if people know they can get XX number of days payed out at the end of the fiscal year as a small bonus, they wouldn't need to take every day? Some people just like to work, let them make the choice.

How many individuals never had approved annual leave passes submitted in the days when there were no limits on carrying it over?

How many? If days were paid out, the carry over problem wouldn't exist. Everyone restarts at 25

How does an individual work 5 years in a row without taking a single annual day?

It depends on the unit, but with all the shorts, specials and sick days people got, it almost made annuals redundant. Take 3 annual days for 2-3 weeks during Christmas holidays? That's nuts. No wonder people roll into February with 15+ days left.

 

[captloadie]

On the contrary, maybe if people know they can get XX number of days payed out at the end of the fiscal year as a small bonus, they wouldn't need to take every day? Some people just like to work, let them make the choice.



How many? If days were paid out, the carry over problem wouldn't exist. Everyone restarts at 25



It depends on the unit, but with all the shorts, specials and sick days people got, it almost made annuals redundant. Take 3 annual days for 2-3 weeks during Christmas holidays? That's nuts. No wonder people roll into February with 15+ days left.

We can't have our cake and eat it too. Either we want leave days, or we want monetary gains. Your last statement is what gets people looking at the leave being granted and determining that policy will change to trade off 10 days leave for some % increase in pay. Yes it works for some, but I think the majority would rather have the time off.

Individuals need to be careful what they ask for. All this talk of being paid hourly and getting OT and such is a very slippery slope. Because we are taxpayer funded, our work hours would be heavily scrutinized, just like the PS, because it is easily trackable.

Being salaried means that it is more difficult to scrutinize, and much easier to defend sliders, CTO, short days, sports days, personal appointments, etc. because generally we make up that time in not working strict schedules, and putting extra time.

 

[QV]

The hours of work in the CAF - when in garrison and not a shift worker - are the biggest bonus as a CAF member. PT on work time, decently early departures. Sliders/shorts/ "pers admin".

The hours of work in the field or on shift is the biggest suck and the CAF gets off easy here.

Overall I think hourly rates of pay for the CAF (including overtime) would be a massive cost increase and admin burden in tracking and salary expenditures. But it might lessen the abuse of shift workers take because command would need to keep the OT costs down.

 

[mariomike]

Why not just set pay figures on a hourly wage with a guarantee of 40hrs per week. Most MSOIDs cross over to civilian jobs.
Then add in OT rates for hours worked above 8 hrs. a day 40 hrs. a week.


You need to make wages fair and competitive. I wonder how many would like to actually compare their wages to others.

They can do so by looking at the annual "Public Sector Salary Disclosure".

 

[Remius]

Because it breeds abuse of the system, and puts the pressure on members not to take leave. How many individuals never had approved annual leave passes submitted in the days when there were no limits on carrying it over? How does an individual work 5 years in a row without taking a single annual day?

Unrelated to the CAF but a person where I worked with in PS would use her sick days for vacation and cash out her annual leave and the end of fiscal. 12 years working and no sick days in her bank.

Karma hit her hard though when she had to take extended sick leave for real and was going to have to on LWOP.

 

[Quirky]

The hours of work in the CAF - when in garrison and not a shift worker - are the biggest bonus as a CAF member. PT on work time, decently early departures. Sliders/shorts/ "pers admin".

The hours of work in the field or on shift is the biggest suck and the CAF gets off easy here.

Overall I think hourly rates of pay for the CAF (including overtime) would be a massive cost increase and admin burden in tracking and salary expenditures. But it might lessen the abuse of shift workers take because command would need to keep the OT costs down.

This is all to say that, the CAF ops don't stop going at 100% despite the TES being lower and lower.

 

[YZT580]

And what about areas where the local market isn't priced to allow for your average MCpl or Sgt to buy? the biggest complaint I hear from reg force members every time I go to Borden to teach is the lack of affordable housing near base. Your average house starts at 700k most are in the 830-850k range. Most live 1.5h+ away from base to find something they can afford.

It really isn't so difficult although the costs at the start are high. Churches have been solving this issue for decades: ever since parsonages became too expensive for the average group. They simply advance their new minister the funds to make a decent down payment on a home interest free. Preacher is then responsible for the mortgage payments, maintenance and everything else connected with home ownership. When he takes another position he returns the down payment. I knew of one family who ended up owning half a dozen properties over 30 years. When they moved they took out a second on the house and then rented it out. If the rental market sucked they sold. Yes it would cost but how much do we already have invested in training? For aircrew it is in the millions of dollars I suspect. Even for the private with one year in it would amount to what a hundred thousand?
Since the government ends up getting it back anyways, the final costs would simply be the interest they would have to pay since it is borrowed money with this government.

 

[KevinB]

Interesting take... Why do wages need to be "fair"?

They need to be competitive enough to keep people in long enough to develop the leaders we need, not the leaders we have left. If, as you seem to be implying, the CAF os over paid, why are are we losing people at the key middle leadership point in their careers?

Because the CAF actually does a good job teaching junior and middle
Management leadership techniques and experience doing so.

Very few civilian jobs give actual leadership training the way that Militaries do.

So you can get a fairly bright, motivated, leader, with a low overhead to train — that’s a pretty big win for the corporate world.


The Sgt-WO, and Capt-Maj personnel who may or may not already have a pension, can jump into a new field and boom.

The CAF doesn’t adequately reward its leadership core IMHO.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Unrelated to the CAF but a person where I worked with in PS would use her sick days for vacation and cash out her annual leave and the end of fiscal. 12 years working and no sick days in her bank.

Karma hit her hard though when she had to take extended sick leave for real and was going to have to on LWOP.

My Dad, former Federal Warden, used to talk about that too. Guards would burn all their annual and sick every year and then when they came down with something serious they had nothing to use.

It bit a few people by the sounds of it.

 

[Czech_pivo]

My Dad, former Federal Warden, used to talk about that too. Guards would burn all their annual and sick every year and then when they came down with something serious they had nothing to use.

It bit a few people by the sounds of it.

All too often I see neighbours, who I know work for the various school boards where I live, outside washing the car or mowing the lawn on a Thursday at 11:30am - 1pm when I'm walking the dog on a known school day....... The early May - mid June time frame at my kids old high school was a time when they would be guaranteed to have 1 or more substitute teachers a week in their classes. I remember 1 particular sunny warm day about 3yrs back when my son had subs for all 4 of his classes that day.....