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Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

Reserve Support units have been gutted of capability and rarely get a chance to work with other units, outside of the vehicle recovery teams. Beef up the support units, have a bunch of Class B positions to help the other Reserve units maintain kit, fund training days so that the Support battalion can support them in the field.
I agree that ARes CSS units are far too small. I'm not so sure how much a service battalion, or even more so a divisional CSS battalion needs to work with the other arms. That's really an issue for an ARes unit's log and main platoons which are non-existent. I think that the Svc bn and up organizations can pretty much train on their own with maybe an occasional combined exercise on summer concentrations.

The real issue that bothers me is how do we form viable log and maint platoons in combat arms units?

I've previously suggested going to a US brigade support battalion (BSB) concept where all logisticians and maintainers and medical are part the BSB with forward support companies and batteries (FSC/FCB) detached to the combat arms battalions but technical control (and for that matter admin management) remains with the BSB. I got some serious pushback from the loggies out there on that idea.

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I've previously suggested going to a US brigade support battalion (BSB) concept where all logisticians and maintainers and medical are part the BSB with forward support companies and batteries (FSC/FCB) detached to the combat arms battalions but technical control (and for that matter admin management) remains with the BSB. I got some serious pushback from the loggies out there on that idea.

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Sounds like on the RCEME side the old Light aid detachments we had until 1964. Back when RCEME was on its own, we were organized into technical Regiments, with technical squadrons dispersed to support the workshops or field units. LADs were the smallest sub unit usually pushed forward to support F ech but still under control of the regiment or squadron it came from. The entire system died when we moved to the service battalion concept, but if we want divional level assets, you cant support a division with a single service battalion. We would need to decouple CSS at that level, and have proper battalions for each.

A divisional maintain battalion would deal with 3rd and 4th line maintenance, and augment 2nd line when's its overwhelmed, it would be on hard stand with plenty of equipment. Which is where I think ARes techs would be easier to augment the in the field force.

ARes techs currently have very little time and trying to fight between tech skills and green skills, we should let training tech skills win and employ them in the 3rd line capacity. Where weaker green skills are less a liability in peacetime.
 
I've kept quiet on this one as I expect everyone knows my thoughts anyway and this whole thing sounds very preliminary.

On the div commander issue it's really quite simple; if there is a 7 Div, then there will be a div commander. The question is BGen or MGen and RegF v ARes? There already is an ARes BGen staff officer at Army HQ as Director General Army Reserve (I think the title has changed since my time). There's really no use for that position if all the ARes comes under one div commander.

The former doesn't work well and the later doesn't work at all. In 1964/5 we had the last real Militia reorganization (everything since then has been putting lipstick on a pig). The Suttie Commission recommended, amongst other things a reduction of units. To avoid the term disbandment the Supplementary Order of Battle was created and specific units retired there. The people were moved into units that continued. This had a temporary effect as the government also assigned many units national survival roles (the Snakes and Ladders folks) and limited funding as general force reductions came with Unification and other force reduction schemes. The end result was a near crash and burn for the Militia as thousands voted with their feet and quit.

I was a young Militia gunner when National Survival was introduced in the 1960s. The trauma of what was now third tier military service was profound. I came through a recruit troop of roughly 40-50 people when the reorganization was announced. Within a month of the announcement there were 5 of us left. We'd all joined to be gunners and not rubble clearers. And yes. We were phoney about it. We did zero national survival training but kept up gunnery training and even got a few live rounds made available for firing at Meaford. By the time I transferred to the RegF in 1969 the national survival concept was completely abandoned.

My personal take-away from the experience is that the vast majority of young kids who join the army reserves do so to do military things; hands on stuff that includes weapons and equipment. If you want to have a civil defence force, create it as a separate agency and let those people inspired to do search and rescue concentrate on that alone with the right training and gear.

I'm one of the usual suspects and have made my position clear - it's 30/70 units and the like. Creating a reserve division is just another lipstick on a pig transformation. It does not move any yard posts. Moving the yardsticks is expensive in both full-time personnel and equipment. You can cut units all you want and you can amalgamate units all you want but you won't create anything better than what is there now until there is real adult full-time leadership right down to the LCol and CWO unit level, proper equipment and budgeting, a sound role and the appropriate individual and collective training supported by a workable administrative system (largely staffed by full-timers) and a proper personnel program that accounts for the soldiers family life and civilian employment by way of proper legislation and policies. Add in a practical recruiting system and the right incentives for joining and retention and you might, after several years be able to field formed sub-units and maybe in a decade a formed unit.

What I'm sensing is coming out of the army at this time is a big push to create a viable RegF with the usual sloughing off of the reserves as a bridge too far to cross. Sad.

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One CAF, two armies.

Again, probably a good example of a leadership failure of the highest order.

The ‘Reserve’ is called that so we can support our Regular Forces in their pursuit of national defence aims. I think.

Further distancing the Reserves from the Reg F will only make that harder to do, and entrench existing siloes to the point that the PRes will become irrelevant.

And maybe that’s the unstated Machiavellian theme behind the new plan.
 
I agree that ARes CSS units are far too small. I'm not so sure how much a service battalion, or even more so a divisional CSS battalion needs to work with the other arms. That's really an issue for an ARes unit's log and main platoons which are non-existent. I think that the Svc bn and up organizations can pretty much train on their own with maybe an occasional combined exercise on summer concentrations.

The real issue that bothers me is how do we form viable log and maint platoons in combat arms units?

I've previously suggested going to a US brigade support battalion (BSB) concept where all logisticians and maintainers and medical are part the BSB with forward support companies and batteries (FSC/FCB) detached to the combat arms battalions but technical control (and for that matter admin management) remains with the BSB. I got some serious pushback from the loggies out there on that idea.

🍻
Let units recruit their own maintainers. Maybe they can be career managed from the mothership at the local service battalion but let UCIs have more than just their main MOSID. No reason the reserve maneouvre and combat support units can't support them, they did in the past. Isn't that long ago my unit had veh techs, a gun plumber, medics and a long time ago, cooks.
 
Let units recruit their own maintainers. Maybe they can be career managed from the mothership at the local service battalion but let UCIs have more than just their main MOSID. No reason the reserve maneouvre and combat support units can't support them, they did in the past. Isn't that long ago my unit had veh techs, a gun plumber, medics and a long time ago, cooks.
Reserve CSS is mandated now to provide fist line to the CBGs. Idk how successful the other service battalions have been, but 41s biggest obstacle is the school, last two years all DP2 courses were cancelled to support DP1s. This year, all Reserve RCEME courses got cancelled. Had for us to support when we cant get people trained. I have multiple techs who have their tool training but their first actual maintenance course keeps getting canceled. Another year of this and we will start losing people.
 
The entire system died when we moved to the service battalion concept, but if we want divional level assets, you cant support a division with a single service battalion. We would need to decouple CSS at that level, and have proper battalions for each.

A divisional maintain battalion would deal with 3rd and 4th line maintenance, and augment 2nd line when's its overwhelmed, it would be on hard stand with plenty of equipment. Which is where I think ARes techs would be easier to augment the in the field force.
We revived the system somewhat in the '80s temporarily with a 1 Div structure that included a DISGP to provide the CSS support. The thing never existed in full form but became a teaching point on all staff courses as doctrine. The DISGP establishment included three service battalions (1 per manoeuvre brigade) a transportation battalion, a logistics battalion, a maintenance battalion, a dental coy and an admin and finance coy.

The maint coy in each service bn and the div maint battalion each provided 2nd line maint (to the manoeuvre bdes and div organizations respectively) and were mobile field units. One didn't get to 3rd and 4th line maintenance until one hit the corps level maintenance brigade which was part of the corps support services command (COSCOM) and the theatre level maint resources above corps respectively.

And maybe that’s the unstated Machiavellian theme behind the new plan.
Are they really organized enough and do they think deeply enough to be capable of creating Machiavellian courses of action?

Reserve CSS is mandated now to provide fist line to the CBGs.
Even with the right courses running, I can't see how a part-time organization could keep even the meagre equipment holdings of a CBG's equipment functioning without a few full-timers to work on a day-to-day basis and plan and organize work and training for the Class As and do parts management.

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Even with the right courses running, I can't see how a part-time organization could keep even the meagre equipment holdings of a CBG's equipment functioning without a few full-timers to work on a day-to-day basis and plan and organize work and training for the Class As and do parts management.

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We have 2x class B to manage to work, take care of work orders etc, on training nights we take care of preventative maintenance, and first line repairs. Weapons side we have a reg force wpns tech, currently vacant so I've been managing all the wpns repairs for the past 8 months with help from 3 CDSG suffield to manage work orders and order parts since I dont have DRIMS access. Worked well, even with just 2 qualified techs and 2 weeks of our Edmonton reg force tech coming down we cleared up a 6 month back log of work in about 2. necessity forced us to figure out a way to make it work, and we managed to get a very effective system going.
 
Just looking over SAIT's offerings for

"Transport and Heavy Equipment Technology" - 2 years to be eligible for an apprenticeship so that you can earn your journeyman designation.

"Diesel Equipment Technician" - 30 weeks prep to apply for an apprenticeship, credited with 600 hours of work experience

There are lots more like these.

....

I don't know much about fixing vehicles these days but I do know that even repair-shops and dealerships seem to be struggling to find qualified tradespeople, at any level.

Is it at all realistic to expect any Class A service member to pick up enough skills to usefully support any modern vehicle?

....

I can understand trying to recruit trained civvy mechanics into the Reserves.
 
Just looking over SAIT's offerings for

"Transport and Heavy Equipment Technology" - 2 years to be eligible for an apprenticeship so that you can earn your journeyman designation.

"Diesel Equipment Technician" - 30 weeks prep to apply for an apprenticeship, credited with 600 hours of work experience

There are lots more like these.

....

I don't know much about fixing vehicles these days but I do know that even repair-shops and dealerships seem to be struggling to find qualified tradespeople, at any level.

Is it at all realistic to expect any Class A service member to pick up enough skills to usefully support any modern vehicle?

....

I can understand trying to recruit trained civvy mechanics into the Reserves.
The system they came up with in 2013 could not, the quality of reserve techs 2013 - now is garbage and its the systems fault. I say this because there was no OJT package, they dicided the reserves didnt need one and could train it all in house, no idea what they were smoking when that was decided. The new program coming in should fix this, they literally took the program from Browns college to teach at the school. They are also partnering with local institutions to run courses for the reserves with civilian instruction. In AB that partners are NAIT and olds college, no idea why SAIT was signed on when its where service battalion is.
 
We have 2x class B to manage to work, take care of work orders etc, on training nights we take care of preventative maintenance, and first line repairs. Weapons side we have a reg force wpns tech, currently vacant so I've been managing all the wpns repairs for the past 8 months with help from 3 CDSG suffield to manage work orders and order parts since I dont have DRIMS access. Worked well, even with just 2 qualified techs and 2 weeks of our Edmonton reg force tech coming down we cleared up a 6 month back log of work in about 2. necessity forced us to figure out a way to make it work, and we managed to get a very effective system going.
That actually sounds pretty good.

(y)
 
Reserve CSS is mandated now to provide fist line to the CBGs. Idk how successful the other service battalions have been, but 41s biggest obstacle is the school, last two years all DP2 courses were cancelled to support DP1s. This year, all Reserve RCEME courses got cancelled. Had for us to support when we cant get people trained. I have multiple techs who have their tool training but their first actual maintenance course keeps getting canceled. Another year of this and we will start losing people.
Switching the training system to the DP system instead of the QL system for the Reserves was a huge mistake from what I have seen.

The issue before was it was difficult to get Reservists the training as it was a long stretch of time as it was all done in one sitting. Now the issue is they have so many packages they need to do and the courses are cancelled/changed/needs years of availability to get done (which isn't particularly viable for Reservists, trades training should be based around two summers to get to a useful functionable point as that's how long you have most Reservists available for full time training) that basically no one is really qualified to do much of anything anymore. You have Cpls who can barely turn a wrench, or maybe just fix a stove/lantern, MCpls who know next to nothing about the trades, and motivated troops getting turned off the system due to how ineffective it is.

I remember watching one of the guys trying to get one of the recovery packages (can't remember which exact DP it was) but they weren't being allowed on it because they didn't have HL qualification. They couldn't get HL qualification because they refused to let them on the course. Just this catch 22 of not being able to progress.
The system they came up with in 2013 could not, the quality of reserve techs 2013 - now is garbage and its the systems fault. I say this because there was no OJT package, they dicided the reserves didnt need one and could train it all in house, no idea what they were smoking when that was decided. The new program coming in should fix this, they literally took the program from Browns college to teach at the school. They are also partnering with local institutions to run courses for the reserves with civilian instruction. In AB that partners are NAIT and olds college, no idea why SAIT was signed on when its where service battalion is.
I hope this helps solve the issue, honestly with how poor quality the Reserves V-Tech training system is they might as well scrap the trade from the Reserves if they were just going to keep the model they were running. Weapons Tech well still broken was at least more useable in their trade from what I saw.
 
I hope this helps solve the issue, honestly with how poor quality the Reserves V-Tech training system is they might as well scrap the trade from the Reserves if they were just going to keep the model they were running. Weapons Tech well still broken was at least more useable in their trade from what I saw.
Wpns I find easy to get OJT for my troops, coordinate with the reg force far in advance, and people come help with ATIs, or we assist with ATIs on a weekend. Need OJT on machine guns? Bring them out to the 4+ MG ranges each year. The niche stuff like shotgun or C16, and mortar is a bit harder but for the main stay of C6,C7, C9, as long as you have a good working relationship with other units you can get the ojt.
 
Just looking over SAIT's offerings for

"Transport and Heavy Equipment Technology" - 2 years to be eligible for an apprenticeship so that you can earn your journeyman designation.

"Diesel Equipment Technician" - 30 weeks prep to apply for an apprenticeship, credited with 600 hours of work experience

There are lots more like these.

....

I don't know much about fixing vehicles these days but I do know that even repair-shops and dealerships seem to be struggling to find qualified tradespeople, at any level.

Is it at all realistic to expect any Class A service member to pick up enough skills to usefully support any modern vehicle?

....

I can understand trying to recruit trained civvy mechanics into the Reserves.

I am a Heavy truck mechanic and I have considered joining the reserves because I like military equipment and I would enjoy working on it. Then I looked at the reserve pay scale and its a long way down until I see daily pay that comes close to what I could make at a shop around here.

I am a self employed mobile mechanic so I am not fully up on the wages in shops right now. An experienced journeyperson friend of mine was $45 an hour two years ago. An 8 hour shift works out to 3 times the private daily pay. I believe an apprentice with one of those courses you mentioned would make $20-25/ hour day one.

I'm not sure how fast someone could move up in pay or if they would make more as a licensed mechanic but good luck getting guys to work their trade for so little.

You may attract mechanics to the reserves to do soldier stuff because many of us would enjoy that. Then the motivator isn't pay and the disparity isn't such an issue.

If the army would like to hire me to do repairs at my regular shop rate I am willing. The legal issues around clearances and such will likely make it more of a hassle than its worth though.
 
in some areas sure, if you have multiple units of the same type, but in the Prairies? maybe not so much, some areas are seeing expansion out here, such as 20th Field is in the process of standing up a battery in Calgary because a platoon worth already is in the city for school or occupying other positions.

You mean like Winnipeg having two platoon strength infantry regiments?

Realistically you could have one armoured regiment and one infantry Bn to cover most of the parties in terms on total numbers.


Purely in terms of structure, what needs to change in your opinion. Im curious to hear a different perspective from the usual suspects positing ideas here.

The Artillery needs to be structured in a way that it could actually form a usable Arty Regiment and also provide air defence. Ideally those have their own howitzers and air defence systems of at least simulators. However the critical issue is CSS with not enough mechanics, techs, or supply techs. Frankly the reserve CSS is a tough recruiting task - I can’t imagine there’s a lot of people excited to be a storeman on their weekends off. Incentives to recruit CSS trades and pushing more full time people (reg / reserve is a silly split it should be full time or part time) into CSS units that support the reserve division is probably the better strategy. @Dana381 points out - there’s little draw to do you 9-5 on a Saturday for half your regular wage. He’d probably be more interested in being an infantry soldier and running around the bush.

I wonder @MilEME09 if a structure where the reserve service Bns function more as a quality assurance / standards cell to more dispersed LADs operating out of various armouries is a better structure for our part time maintainers? It strikes me as a flawed idea that we only recruit you folks in a small number of urban areas. Would we be able to say pay for a recruits trade school in exchange for X number of days served and have periodic check ins on their work? I guess I question why we’d need to send a heavy duty mechanic who’s going to be primarily working on diesel engines to a DP1 to teach them what they largely already know. Obviously that’s not a blanket solve.
 
I wonder @MilEME09 if a structure where the reserve service Bns function more as a quality assurance / standards cell to more dispersed LADs operating out of various armouries is a better structure for our part time maintainers? It strikes me as a flawed idea that we only recruit you folks in a small number of urban areas. Would we be able to say pay for a recruits trade school in exchange for X number of days served and have periodic check ins on their work? I guess I question why we’d need to send a heavy duty mechanic who’s going to be primarily working on diesel engines to a DP1 to teach them what they largely already know. Obviously that’s not a blanket solve.
We have toyed with remote platoons in Red deer, med hat, and lethbridge. We have one in lehtbridge but it remains only around a section, but i also dont know how active recruiting is there. One city in AB im surprised doesnt have a reserve presence is Grand Prairie, with a comparable population to lethbridge or red deer, seems like we could likely generate a couple platoons there.

This requires political will though on part of the army. Many remote platoons disappeared in 1964/65. Example 9th technical regiment RCEME in 1964 we had 31 technical squadron in Blairmore, 39 technical squadron (briefly renamed A squadron) in calgary, 38 tech squadron Edmonton, 32 and HQ squadron lethbridge plus 142 LAD attached to the engineers, and 26 squadron med hat.

Plus 9 Technical regiment even had a band until 1962. So thats 6 squadrons, plus a platoon sized LAD, roughly the size of a proper maintenance battalion. With the political will, and the right strategy and invest we could easily do it again.
 
For fun, here's how to get something approved by Treasury Board.


Before a TB submission can be presented to the Treasury Board:

  • policy approval and a source of funds for the initiative must have been secured
  • TBS must have received the record of decision, if applicable

Probably “a few” people (GOFOs for the most part) who should actually read this part of the TBS guidelines…
 
I am a Heavy truck mechanic and I have considered joining the reserves because I like military equipment and I would enjoy working on it. Then I looked at the reserve pay scale and its a long way down until I see daily pay that comes close to what I could make at a shop around here.

I am a self employed mobile mechanic so I am not fully up on the wages in shops right now. An experienced journeyperson friend of mine was $45 an hour two years ago. An 8 hour shift works out to 3 times the private daily pay. I believe an apprentice with one of those courses you mentioned would make $20-25/ hour day one.

I'm not sure how fast someone could move up in pay or if they would make more as a licensed mechanic but good luck getting guys to work their trade for so little.

You may attract mechanics to the reserves to do soldier stuff because many of us would enjoy that. Then the motivator isn't pay and the disparity isn't such an issue.

If the army would like to hire me to do repairs at my regular shop rate I am willing. The legal issues around clearances and such will likely make it more of a hassle than its worth though.

There is historical precedence.

Woolwich Artificers were paid up to 4 times as much as an infantry private while their officers earned twice as much as an infantry officer. Plus they may earn additional pay for special commissions.

1733
[td width="1372px"]
The first record of Bastide found in the records of the Corps of Engineers (now Royal Engineers) is his appointment as sub-engineer on 14 February 1733 while he directed "the works and fortifications at Jersey and Guernsey." He had been on the job in Guernsey since 1726 and would remain there until 1739. At that time engineer officers were not part of the British Army as such but, along with the artillery, were part of the Ordnance Corps, under the command of the Master General of the Ordnance. It was, however, quite normal for engineers to also hold rank within an army regiment. Regimental commissions were purchased but appointments within the corps of engineers were by seniority and could not be purchased.​
[/td]​


1750As Chief Engineer at Annapolis Royal in 1750 Bastide was receiving "20s/ a day as Director, 20s/ as Chief at Annapolis, and 10s/ in lieu of a clerk."

50 shillings a day or £2 10/-

In 1750, a British Army Lieutenant Colonel in the infantry would have been paid 13 shillings and 11 pence per day according to The Napoleon Series.

It has always been necessary to pay for technical skills.
 
I am a Heavy truck mechanic and I have considered joining the reserves because I like military equipment and I would enjoy working on it. Then I looked at the reserve pay scale and its a long way down until I see daily pay that comes close to what I could make at a shop around here.
I'm about to start a firestorm here but I think you raise a very valuable point that lies at the heart of reserve service which is that reservists are not recruited and employed, for the most part, for what they bring to the table day-to-day while serving on a part-time basis, but the potential that they offer if and when required to serve full-time.

For the most part of my legal career as a reservist, I was billing more per hour as a civilian lawyer than I could earn in a day as a military legal officer. I stayed with the job until age sixty because I enjoyed doing something different than what I did daily in the civilian office, even though my military work was similar in general. The point here, however, is that we cannot depend on the good will of a few individuals to fill the many professional and skilled trades jobs that a mobilized army will need. The concept simply won't scale up to what is needed. Similarly, the government cannot start paying professional and skilled trade rates at their high end. That would leave you with a force too small to do its job. That said, pay scales are already on a par with, and in some cases, above the rate for equivalent civilian jobs (where equivalents exist).

I've come to believe that if we wish to create viable reserve combat service support units, we need to approach the job quite differently and treat high technical skills jobs differently. IMHO a viable system that will produce large numbers of skilled reservists would work like this:

1) recruit them young - at the end of high school - when they are looking for adventure, skills training, are still living at home, and want some pocket money;

2) those selected immediately after high school get sent that summer (roughly two months) on an army basic training course to a) evaluate their suitability for further training; b) give them a full summer of paid employment; and c) inculcate some basic military skills in them;

3) those who are successful are sent to an appropriate community college for their trades training. They continue to live at home, are not paid a salary (except for one weekend of military training per month) but have their entire tuition and related expenses paid by the army;

4) the next summer they are put on a four month military conversion course to take what they have learned at community college to practical military knowledge - let's say auto mechanic. For this they continue to live at home but receive a full salary;

5) the next fall they return to a community college for further training - let's say heavy vehicle mechanic or diesel mechanic - again, they live at home, receive no pay (except the one weekend per month) but have their schooling costs paid. At the end of this process they have earned their civilian ticket for their craft;

6) the following summer they again attend a military conversion course that lasts the whole summer and at full salary while still living at home. This training is designed to have them at the full military DP1 status for their military trade.

7) The next step is that in exchange for their paid schooling, each individual is bound to continue serving in the reserves, in their trade, for a period of obligatory service of, let's say three years. During those three years they would be obliged to attend mandatory training with their unit of one weekend per month and a one or two-week summer exercise. In addition they could attend other training (higher trades training or leadership training) on a strictly voluntary basis. At the end of their three years of obligatory service they can leave, stay on voluntarily without obligations, or take a reenlistment bonus which would bind them for another term of obligatory service. In any event, anyone who leaves is automatically transferred to the supplementary reserve for a set period (let's say five or ten years) with no further training obligations but being liable to recall in the event of a major conflict or other emergency as defined in the National Defence Act.

8) Some individuals, at the end of their DP1 training, could also be offered contracts on Class B service (which would provide them experience making them more attractive employees in the civilian world, or given opportunities to transfer to the regular force. This would fill both short term and long term surges in need of certain classes of trades. Unforecasted surge needs are different from the forecast steady state needs of the army. The steady state, peacetime need for such trades ought to be fulfilled by continuing, full-time service members i.e. the regular force.

The intent of the system is to leverage existing civilian schooling systems, provide an education that makes them a trained and certified tradesman within their chosen field and provide just enough incentives along the way to make enrolling a desirable path to a future civilian career at essentially no financial cost to the recruit and a minimal cost to the military. At the same time it generates a pool of trained tradesmen/women in sufficient numbers to fill the numerous reserve CSS units that an army, at scale, needs in order to mobilize in a time of conflict.

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