Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[PrairieFella]

Ever watch Jericho?

I haven't. Do tell.

 

[RangerRay]

Ever watch Jericho?

Season 1 was awesome. Then it got cancelled. After a huge backlash, the network reluctantly brought it back for a final season, which I think they purposefully made hot garbage.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Ever watch Jericho?

Nuts!

 

[tomydoom]

Yes I thought that was pretty obvious given my previous responses to the “can we trust the immigrants” crowd.

Glad to hear it as my dad’s family only arrived 74 years ago. .

 

[FJAG]

I believe that was the initial concept for the Cold War army of the early 50s albeit on a smaller scale. One brigade group for Korea, one for NATO in Germany and 3 at home to sustain them.

I'd be interested in knowing where the five brigades idea come from.

I only ever knew of four - 1, 2, 3, and 4. When 5 was formed in Valcartier, they eliminated 3 Bde in Gagetown. There was, of course, the Airborne Regiment, but it was really only in the nature of a large battlegroup.

 

[MacNav63]

I'd be interested in knowing where the five brigades idea come from.

I only ever knew of four - 1, 2, 3, and 4. When 5 was formed in Valcartier, they eliminated 3 Bde in Gagetown. There was, of course, the Airborne Regiment, but it was really only in the nature of a large battlegroup.

I dearly wish I could tell you. My recollection is of seeing it in a history of the brigade in Germany, perhaps Sean Maloney's, but I can't for the life of me find it. Maybe it was only ever a plan that didn't survive the end of the war in Korea? In my recollection of it though it made sense to me given the number of infantry battalions the army had, at least until the 3rd and 4th battalions of the Canadian Guards were stood down in '57 to make way for the new tank regiments. Again, by my recollection, from the end of Korea until '57 there were 15 battalions: CG x 4, R22eR x 3 and 2 each of the RCR, PPCLI, QOR and Black Watch.

 

[MrWhyt]

Glad to hear it as my dad’s family only arrived 74 years ago. .

pfft newcomer, my father and his family have been here for 77 years.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I'd be interested in knowing where the five brigades idea come from.

I only ever knew of four - 1, 2, 3, and 4. When 5 was formed in Valcartier, they eliminated 3 Bde in Gagetown. There was, of course, the Airborne Regiment, but it was really only in the nature of a large battlegroup.

I think he is assuming that there were three brigades (1, 2, 3) in Canada when 25 Bde was raised for Korea and 27 Bde for NATO/Germany, rather than the Mobile Striking Force (the "operational formation" which held the full time Reg Force units for defence of Canada). Even including 25 Bde there has only been four brigades active at the same time. 25 Bde was a Korea only formation; 27 Bde was for Germany but lasted not much beyond the PANDA experiment when 1 Cdn Inf Bde was reconstituted (along with 2 and 3 Bdes in 1 Cdn Div) and became the NATO/Germany brigade (1953); there was one rotation of 2 Cdn Inf Bde to Germany (1955) before 4 Cdn Inf Bde was stood up (1957) and remained (with a few tweaks of title along the way) the Germany brigade until closure. 25 Bde in Korea had been stood down by this time.

 

[Underway]

pfft newcomer, my father and his family have been here for 77 years.

Empire loyalist family. Better to be a barn burner than have your barn burned, is what my great grandmother used to say! Her grandma had personal experience with that apparently.

 

[FJAG]

I think he is assuming that there were three brigades (1, 2, 3) in Canada when 25 Bde was raised for Korea and 27 Bde for NATO/Germany, rather than the Mobile Striking Force (the "operational formation" which held the full time Reg Force units for defence of Canada). Even including 25 Bde there has only been four brigades active at the same time. 25 Bde was a Korea only formation; 27 Bde was for Germany but lasted not much beyond the PANDA experiment when 1 Cdn Inf Bde was reconstituted (along with 2 and 3 Bdes in 1 Cdn Div) and became the NATO/Germany brigade (1953); there was one rotation of 2 Cdn Inf Bde to Germany (1955) before 4 Cdn Inf Bde was stood up (1957) and remained (with a few tweaks of title along the way) the Germany brigade until closure. 25 Bde in Korea had been stood down by this time.

That's my general understanding.

Post WW2 there was the formation of the full-time Mobile Striking Force. When the Korea mission came up the government decided not to send it (it was understrength anyway) so in the summer of 1950 it raised a special force for Korea which ultimately became 25 Cdn Inf Bde (CIB). 25 CIB stayed in Korea until starting its wind down in 1954. In Feb 1955 25 CIB was reactivated as 4 CIB in Borden.

Meanwhile, Canada raised a brigade for NATO in Germany designated 27 CIB in May 1951. In Oct 1953 it was redesignated 1 CIB.

2 CIB was activated in 1954 in Petawawa it rotated to Germany in 1955 it was replaced there by 4 CIB in 1957.

The assembly of the Gagetown training area started in the early 1950s and the base was officially opened in 1956. 3 CIB was activated in 1958 in Gagetown. Late in the 1950s the name of the CIBs changed to CIBGs.

Things remained relatively stable until the unification mess in 1968 followed by a reduction of force strength. Two new organizations were created in the period 1968 to 1970 being the Airborne Regiment in Edmonton and 5 Combat Group in Valcartier. Concurrently 3 CIBG was disbanded as the various combat arms schools moved into Gagetown to take over the vacated space n 1970. At the time CIBGs were reduced in size with the ones in Canada - 1 and 2 - designated Combat Groups while 4CIBG became 4 CMBG. The various Gagetown assets were redistributed and reassigned to 2CG and 5CG

I know that repeats some of what you said. I was trying to piece the whole story (especially 3 CIBG) together so kind of wrote it down more as an aide memoire to myself. I'm actually quite flabbergasted at how hard it is to find any decent post-WW2 history of the Canadian army online.

One thing we shouldn't forget that after WW2 and until 1954, the Canadian Army (Reserve Force) was organized into divisions and brigades. There were 6 infantry divisions (1 to 6), 14 infantry brigades (3 to 18 skipping 5 and 10) and 4 armoured brigades (19 to 22) under a number of Military Districts. At that point the organization was renamed the Canadian Army (Militia) and Militia Group headquarters introduced.

 

[HavokFour]

Empire loyalist family. Better to be a barn burner than have your barn burned, is what my great grandmother used to say! Her grandma had personal experience with that apparently.

Oh, a fellow UEL!

She wasn't wrong, that's how family ended up here in Canada. Came from Scotland to Georgia to start a new life, up until entire families started getting lynched for preferring the Crown before the war officially broke out. My 5x-Great-Grandfather earned our land by burning crops and raiding anything within reach in New York, and had plenty of fight left in him well into his 70's when 1812 came around.

 

[MacNav63]

That's my general understanding.

Post WW2 there was the formation of the full-time Mobile Striking Force. When the Korea mission came up the government decided not to send it (it was understrength anyway) so in the summer of 1950 it raised a special force for Korea which ultimately became 25 Cdn Inf Bde (CIB). 25 CIB stayed in Korea until starting its wind down in 1954. In Feb 1955 25 CIB was reactivated as 4 CIB in Borden.

Meanwhile, Canada raised a brigade for NATO in Germany designated 27 CIB in May 1951. In Oct 1953 it was redesignated 1 CIB.

2 CIB was activated in 1954 in Petawawa it rotated to Germany in 1955 it was replaced there by 4 CIB in 1957.

The assembly of the Gagetown training area started in the early 1950s and the base was officially opened in 1956. 3 CIB was activated in 1958 in Gagetown. Late in the 1950s the name of the CIBs changed to CIBGs.

Things remained relatively stable until the unification mess in 1968 followed by a reduction of force strength. Two new organizations were created in the period 1968 to 1970 being the Airborne Regiment in Edmonton and 5 Combat Group in Valcartier. Concurrently 3 CIBG was disbanded as the various combat arms schools moved into Gagetown to take over the vacated space n 1970. At the time CIBGs were reduced in size with the ones in Canada - 1 and 2 - designated Combat Groups while 4CIBG became 4 CMBG. The various Gagetown assets were redistributed and reassigned to 2CG and 5CG

I know that repeats some of what you said. I was trying to piece the whole story (especially 3 CIBG) together so kind of wrote it down more as an aide memoire to myself. I'm actually quite flabbergasted at how hard it is to find any decent post-WW2 history of the Canadian army online.

One thing we shouldn't forget that after WW2 and until 1954, the Canadian Army (Reserve Force) was organized into divisions and brigades. There were 6 infantry divisions (1 to 6), 14 infantry brigades (3 to 18 skipping 5 and 10) and 4 armoured brigades (19 to 22) under a number of Military Districts. At that point the organization was renamed the Canadian Army (Militia) and Militia Group headquarters introduced.

There really is a woeful lack of any sort of detailed information about the army in the late 40s and 50s available online.

 

[GK .Dundas]

There really is a woeful lack of any sort of detailed information about the army in the late 40s and 50s available online.

There not a hell of lot out there period.

 

[FJAG]

There really is a woeful lack of any sort of detailed information about the army in the late 40s and 50s available online.

There not a hell of lot out there period.

Looks like there would be a good job there for something like a directorate of history - Oh. Wait.

 

[markppcli]

I think in general, to get back to the route of the discussion, the spending increase will largely cover operational needs of the CAF as it stands. Hopefully we can recover our VOR rate a bit and get to a point where what we have is actually usable. I’ll be curious to see where we go beyond that. If we can.

 

[ytz]

I think in general, to get back to the route of the discussion, the spending increase will largely cover operational needs of the CAF as it stands. Hopefully we can recover our VOR rate a bit and get to a point where what we have is actually usable. I’ll be curious to see where we go beyond that. If we can.

It covers more than operational needs. But how effective we'll be at turning cash into capability remains to be seen. Especially given both the politics of procurement and the politics of basing (which itself drives up costs and secondary effects like recruitment and retention).

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Hopefully we can recover our VOR rate a bit and get to a point where what we have is actually usable. I’ll be curious to see where we go beyond that. If we can.

Most of our VOR woes are due to our platforms being older than dirt, while their replacements are still 5-7 years away from arriving.

We had a large portion of our LUVW fleet head to 3rd Line due to the frames becoming corroded like Swiss cheese. Our LSVW fleet is almost exclusively used for cannibalism, because they don't make replacement parts for them anymore. I won't even begin to speak about the ACSV woes or the HLVWs we have running on hopes and dreams.

If that money can go into speeding up the replacement process, I pray to god it does.