Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[foresterab]

I couldn't help but notice that your list of schools are all universities. Both Heddle, here in Ontario, and Seaspan for BC have teamed up with community colleges to train future employees. Most of the trades I have read about on these pages are skills related. Surely a little coordination with the colleges could establish and maintain a training syllabus that would meet your needs as well as industry's.

100% agree. There are many colleges and technical schools around the country that also offer remote education. Some I really question what they're teaching but many others are solid, fundamental courses.

Something more within my lane is the number of Emergency Response/Preparedness courses being offered by colleges. While it's another good coffee on the course content within I would also argue this is a subject stream that for those CAF members who have deployed on OP LENTUS may be given partial course credit for dependent upon role/duration/experience. If they can find a college to recognize some of this experience then the CAF member might be 20% or 40% done their college education prior to hitting the books.

Or to look at it from a trades perspective. Many tradespeople I know did not attend school for Year 1 education but challenged the exam based upon experience already gained as entry level help. Year 2/3 and Red Seal exam course work is where the formal education came in.

 

[Kirkhill]

How about teaming up with charter schools for basic military training? Even one year long class in the senior year might create some usefully advanced volunteers.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Funny how the people who are responsible for the hull surveys, and determining PM are the same ones to gain from the lack of structural and systems maintenance.
One can say all they want about the ships are old, this costs to much, that costs to much. Fixing Hulls and replacing pipework is nothing new and has been done for decades. There is no excuse for hulls to be so corroded/ worn thin that a hammer goes through it.
Those in charge of the PM program should be fired and then charged with negligence.

How ever complex performing hull work and pipework is, it can and has been done. Jobs more complex and harder have been done. Negligence is the case. I have heard the story, it was far down in the hull and not regularly accessed. All the more reason to be properly inspected, NDT and surveyed.
But don't worry, members and supporters will continue to come up with excuses for systematic failures that should have been avoided. But they were not.

If the companies I worked for were run like the "experts in NDHQ and support services" they would all have been shut down days after opening.

That's not how any of that works; the hull surveys are done by trained and experienced personnel who work for DND, and similar to piping.

You can only do a lot of it when the ship is out of the water, and paint has been blasted off. When the 5 year PM gets extended to 8 years, surveys get pushed, and previous DWPs got cut short for several cycles, this is the result.

Same as piping, you need the systems to be significantly isolated and drained down, which is hard to do if the maintenance periods are always cut short, and the systems are never able to take off line due to ops tempo.

These ships have been ridden hard and put away wet their entire life, with PM and CM not completed due to under resourcing and conflict with ops, but thanks for the insight from the peanut galleries.

 

[lenaitch]

How about teaming up with charter schools for basic military training? Even one year long class in the senior year might create some usefully advanced volunteers.

It seems charter school only exist in Alberta.

 

[Eaglelord17]

That's not how any of that works; the hull surveys are done by trained and experienced personnel who work for DND, and similar to piping.

You can only do a lot of it when the ship is out of the water, and paint has been blasted off. When the 5 year PM gets extended to 8 years, surveys get pushed, and previous DWPs got cut short for several cycles, this is the result.

Same as piping, you need the systems to be significantly isolated and drained down, which is hard to do if the maintenance periods are always cut short, and the systems are never able to take off line due to ops tempo.

These ships have been ridden hard and put away wet their entire life, with PM and CM not completed due to under resourcing and conflict with ops, but thanks for the insight from the peanut galleries.

Weren’t the CPFs also designed with a 25 year lifespan in mind as well?

 

[childs56]

That's not how any of that works; the hull surveys are done by trained and experienced personnel who work for DND, and similar to piping.

You can only do a lot of it when the ship is out of the water, and paint has been blasted off. When the 5 year PM gets extended to 8 years, surveys get pushed, and previous DWPs got cut short for several cycles, this is the result.

Same as piping, you need the systems to be significantly isolated and drained down, which is hard to do if the maintenance periods are always cut short, and the systems are never able to take off line due to ops tempo.

These ships have been ridden hard and put away wet their entire life, with PM and CM not completed due to under resourcing and conflict with ops, but thanks for the insight from the peanut galleries.

Ever heard of smart pigs?
Ever heard of robotic or semi auto NDT?
Didn't think so. Or maybe it would have been used to check the rusty ship parts while operating.

Thanks for the insult. Well appreciated. Just because you or your experience has not done something doesnt mean it can't or isn't done.

Again the limiting factor of the CF is it's SMEs across the field. Both in uniform and out of uniform.

Broaden your horizon you would be amazed by whats out there for tech.

 

[suffolkowner]

I would assume that X number of the 12 Halifax’s would be gone 10yrs out.

So, based on the above and the post from ‘Iknownothing’, what will be the potential net increase in personnel that would be required 10yrs in the future?
250?
450?
800?
1100?
1400?


Do the 6 AOPS cancel out the 12 Kingstons in terms of personnel?
Do the 3 or 4 Rivers require more, less or equal the number of personnel that 3 or 4 Halifax’s do?
Do the 2-4 subs require more, less or equal our current personnel for the Vic’s?
The 2 JSS are ‘net new’ for certain and that’s 400 not including air crew and only 1 crew per ship.

that X number of Halifaxs is the thing right?
reduction in operable Halifaxs frees up people for the ships that are operable?
2033 HMCS Fraser?
2045 12th RCD?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Ever heard of smart pigs?
Ever heard of robotic or semi auto NDT?
Didn't think so. Or maybe it would have been used to check the rusty ship parts while operating.

Thanks for the insult. Well appreciated. Just because you or your experience has not done something doesnt mean it can't or isn't done.

Again the limiting factor of the CF is it's SMEs across the field. Both in uniform and out of uniform.

Broaden your horizon you would be amazed by whats out there for tech.

Yes, and yes, both are being done, along with a number of other advanced scanning to try and catch up with it, but it still has limitations.

All that still requires time along side and maintenance windows and access, and won't catch up with 30+ years of hard running.

Glad to have your armchair expertise though, enjoy your weekend.

 

[Kirkhill]

It seems charter school only exist in Alberta.

Oh well.

 

[ytz]

This is a role I can see with RMC. Turn it into a mixture of ROTC training, General Staff advanced studies, and most importantly a coordination center for online schooling/community college type training. For reference Royal Roads College, Athabasca University, University of Manitoba, University of Guelph are all schools I've heard referenced by ex-CAF members. There has to be more that would be available especially if RMC had a cleaner translation/competency credit evaluation table to share with organizations that says RMC recognizes CAF course X as the equivalent to RMC course LEAD101 (Leadership 101) or FRE201 (French Language training to competency grade C).

RMC already does most of this. They train ROTP cadets. And they give graduates of staff college a master's degree queen a few more courses. They even offer DL programs.

I would caution though that there's a real danger in pushing most officers through RMC. It creates group think. And at the graduate level, RMC lacks the resources to really provide training and exposure in most specialized domains.

Are any of the standards, etc. of CAF trades that have a civilian equivalent recognized by any provincial or federal regulator, guild, etc. either in whole or in part?

It's rare that CAF trades are fully recognized by provincial guilds or trades associations. Usually there's a little bit more to be done to qualify. And I do think sometimes, that's by design, on the part of the CAF. Which as an officer who got two very expensive Masters degrees paid for, with pilot friends who can walk in WestJet and get jobs, I find this a little unfair.

 

[ytz]

You think that Roshel would get some of that action then, I wonder who in government/Liberal Party they pissed off?

Who says that they have?

Exactly. People are assuming a lot. The government wants to spend on the CAF. The projects that saw this coming and did all the staff work are now getting accelerated. The ones who didn't? They'll take time.

There's cultural differences between the services here too. The Air force started actively directing its higher performing Maj and LCOLs into the air staff to improve project leadership about 5 years ago. That's now paying off. The Navy is getting there too. The army still feels like staff jobs are punishment and a time out from the regiment. The government will spend on the army when the land staff folks catch up. The CA is actually starting to emulate the same philosophy now. Give it a few posting cycles to pay dividends.

 

[ytz]

I couldn't help but notice that your list of schools are all universities. Both Heddle, here in Ontario, and Seaspan for BC have teamed up with community colleges to train future employees. Most of the trades I have read about on these pages are skills related. Surely a little coordination with the colleges could establish and maintain a training syllabus that would meet your needs as well as industry's.

The CAF teams up with colleges too. Particularly on the navy side. More broadly these days return NCM STEP. But also, look at the partnerships with Algonquin in Ottawa. There's literally project management classes there for LCOLS and COLS. And there's ever trades programs delegated to colleges. For example, the Cyber folks using a private college in a mall in Ottawa.

The universities he mentioned are common because of all DL and Continuing Education programmes they aim at CAF members.

 

[Eaglelord17]

It's rare that CAF trades are fully recognized by provincial guilds or trades associations. Usually there's a little bit more to be done to qualify. And I do think sometimes, that's by design, on the part of the CAF. Which as an officer who got two very expensive Masters degrees paid for, with pilot friends who can walk in WestJet and get jobs, I find this a little unfair.

Part of it too is they have certified people as red seal in the past who weren’t actually up to the standard needed. Two examples. Example 1: Power engineers and the old stoker trade. Some did make good 1st/2nd class engineers, some basically faked it and you can’t fake it in the real world in that career.

Example 2: You used to able to get your red seal machinist ticket from the stoker trade. I can tell you that the training/work provided did not get you anywhere close to a red seal machinist level. At best maybe 2nd year apprentice.

Why would the CAF train people to do work they never expect them to do just to get a civilian equivalency? The only thing that it benefits is those troops walking out, as it certainly doesn’t bring people in the door.

 

[ytz]

I would argue the bar should be even lower.

My late grandfather - RCAF during WW2 - was a participant of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. I was privileged enough to be able to visit several flight museums with him and learn stuff even his own children didn't hear. But I often think of his comment when looking at a Lancaster bomber on display...

The war...yes...we all knew we were going. But the understated impact of taking a bunch of recruits and providing them with a world class college education in 9 months through the BCATP is the true success of Canada.

Now I understand failure rates/trades transfers were high - my grandfather was one of them washing out of pilot school - but the emphasis was train/test then move them to the next stage as demand/time allows. So take that new private and offer them the ability to move to a specialist role if they have skills in trade X or start developing the next WO when they're 22 instead of waiting until they're 30 and then looking at the education needed to retain them/transfer to officer corps. My grandfather left the RCAF as a Sgt. but that was based more upon his trade - flight engineer - than time in service.

I would argue that the first year of a new recruits time is about basic training and basic skill set training post basic. But after the first year? 18 months? open up training options especially if they can be voluntary additional tasks such as:
1) language practice on the following languages ________ via something as simple as the Duolingo phone app. CAF will pay for app. If score X is reached then competency grade of Y will be entered into file.
2) critical skill set needed - drone pilots license for example. CAF will re-imburse 100% of cost upon completion if taken from providers A, B or C.
3) development barrier for further education - Grade 12 GED. CAF will re-imburse 75% of course cost upon passing grade.
4) development barrier for future promotion needs - Bachelor degree. CAF will re-imburse 50% of course cost upon passing grade from RMC/partner school. Eligible for initial degree only.

It is a tough line to figure out though because the trade a CAF member is within affects the opportunities available and then there are the internal Federal Government processes/DND/CAF policies involved. So if an officer requires a university degree (a separate discussion point on the forum here) then how does a new private get that degree? If a trade requires a ticket like the reference to air brake training above...how do we arrange for additional key training options to be recognized?

This obsession with WWII has to end. The only other people as obsessed with WWII are the Russians.

Go look up what aircraft costed back then. And what their crash rates were. And you'll start to understand why we can't train like that anymore. That is before even discussing the complexity of modern aircraft.

And it's not just aircraft. Look up the cost of training rounds on torpedoes or ATGMs. Look at the combined firepower of a warship. Heck, there's domains where live training is impossible. For example, with Space.

"My great grandfather did this in WWII...." Cool story. Doesn't help much today.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The government will spend on the army when the land staff folks catch up.

Leaving aside whether the criticism is valid, if defence policy simply rewards those with the most ducks in a row, the political leadership isn't doing its job and is failing Canadians - the civilian experts aren't.

 

[ytz]

Leaving aside whether the criticism is valid, if defence policy simply rewards those with the most ducks in a row, the political leadership isn't doing its job and is failing Canadians - the civilian experts aren't.

It's simply the reality of how organizations work. The air force had an epiphany under LGEN Kenney and pushed a cultural change at the HQ level. It wasn't necessarily popular. Nobody likes staff jobs. Least of all pilots. But he insisted that the communities send good people not just people they didn't want at squadron. It paid off. The navy and the army saw that. And one of those was slower than the other to learn from the air force.

Ultimately, services have to balance between talent in the field, in training establishments and in staff. Kenney took some risks bolstering his staff. And it paid off.

I will add that the air force could also see a path to spending earlier with NORAD modernization becoming a real focus for defence policy in Canada. That drives investment on everything from fighters to space based ISR. And Kenney eventually transformed that into his fifth generation air force vision, for which he insisted on having the staff talent, to implement.

 

[childs56]

Yes, and yes, both are being done, along with a number of other advanced scanning to try and catch up with it, but it still has limitations.

All that still requires time along side and maintenance windows and access, and won't catch up with 30+ years of hard running.

Glad to have your armchair expertise though, enjoy your weekend.

When I hear they are surprised piping and hulls are paper thin, surprised that corrosion, rust and or wear was found unexpectedly. I doubt much NDT is being done except alongside. Only in easily accessible areas. During the maintenance period and or the reports are being ignored completely until almost failure.
Yes I have friends who work in the yards who have not seen some of the NDT I mentioned performed. But maybe they were not aware of all the happenings. Hopefully they will figure things out for the better.
Now to start up a company to inspect the hulls, piping and structure of the ship while at sea. For reports as they come alongside. Mmmmmm Need a Quebec and or Nova Scotia address.

 

[PrairieFella]

You think that Roshel would get some of that action then, I wonder who in government/Liberal Party they pissed off?

Theyre basically guaranteed to win LUV. The other contenders are American manufactured and Armatec still hasmt announced anything years later at this point. Theyll do just fine. Its unfortunate LUV keeps getting pushed. Low priority I imagine. Perhaps @dapaterson has an insight there, but probably nothing disclosable.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Theyre basically guaranteed to win LUV. The other contenders are American manufactured and Armatec still hasmt announced anything years later at this point. Theyll do just fine. Its unfortunate LUV keeps getting pushed. Low priority I imagine. Perhaps dapaterson has an insight there, but probably nothing disclosable.

Don’t forget the #1 most enduring element of DND procurement since the 1960’s: Surprise.

 

[MilEME09]

Theyre basically guaranteed to win LUV. The other contenders are American manufactured and Armatec still hasmt announced anything years later at this point. Theyll do just fine. Its unfortunate LUV keeps getting pushed. Low priority I imagine. Perhaps @dapaterson has an insight there, but probably nothing disclosable.

Im betting GM will win LUV phase 1 with Milcot 2.0, Roshel will likely get phase 2 with the senator. Both would then be built in canada, be manufactured quickly, and if we buy at significant scale we can replace our crippled fleets fast