Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[GR66]

With the layout of the aviation brigade. Its not a nice to have but a requirement.

It may be a requirement on paper but is it an actual requirement for the CAF? Is there a use case for AH's in the defence of Canada? Is deploying an Aviation Brigade in support of NATO the optimal use of that funding and PY's?

 

[MilEME09]

It may be a requirement on paper but is it an actual requirement for the CAF? Is there a use case for AH's in the defence of Canada? Is deploying an Aviation Brigade in support of NATO the optimal use of that funding and PY's?

The regular wants to be able to deploy and operate as a division. Higher has determined in order to do that, we need dedicated rotary wing support. Including CAS, so that they may provide the maneuver division with CAS. We have to look at the context of a self supporting division with all the enablers.

 

[GR66]

The regular wants to be able to deploy and operate as a brigade. Higher has determined in order to do that, we need dedicated rotary wing support. Including CAS, so that they may provide the maneuver division with CAS. We have to look at the context of a self supporting division with all the enablers.

I understand the reasoning...just not convinced I support it

 

[YZT580]

It may be a requirement on paper but is it an actual requirement for the CAF? Is there a use case for AH's in the defence of Canada? Is deploying an Aviation Brigade in support of NATO the optimal use of that funding and PY's?

if the consideration is TacHel would it be wise to either a) maintain and re-build the C130H for refueling or purchase more J's equipped as tankers.

 

[ytz]

I question if the CAF really needs an Attack Helicopter. I view them as a "nice to have" but there are MANY capabilities that I'd choose to fund before spending any money on AH's.

This is on par with do we need tanks. It's a necessary capability to enable manoeuvre in near-peer. And nTACS has confirmed that in their analysis. It's on the books.

And I am pointing out the danger of going full R&D alone. It will not necessarily result in a better Maritime Helicopter outcome than the Cyclone.

Fair. I don't think people have fully grasped the implications of the DIS. This discussion is happening across the whole HQ last week. Several projects have started preparing branch plans where procurement is sole source to a Canadian prime.

It was kinda funny to see little to no discussion on the DIS, given the activity I saw at work.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I'm going to guess. Second Chinook squadron in Edmonton. Two regular and one SOF MV-75 squadrons (Borden, St-Hubert Per). Three attack helo squadrons (Edmonton, Per, Valcartier) and Conversion of Cyclone to H175. And respective OTUs (Gagetown and Halifax).

Will be interesting to see what happens with the Attack Helo. I'm guessing Apaches were preferred. The DIS probably rules that out. Dunno what Bell will offer. Guessing Airbus will offer the Tiger.

The rumour I've heard is Cyclone is going to be dumped in favour of the SH-60 Seahawk, H-175 doesn't make a lot of sense for its roles except maybe some on land.

The Tiger is old and kind of crappy, I'd expect us to go full modern European with something like the AW249 Fenice if we're going down the path of attack helos at all.

 

[MilEME09]

The rumour I've heard is Cyclone is going to be dumped in favour of the SH-60 Seahawk, H-175 doesn't make a lot of sense for its roles except maybe some on land.

The Tiger is old and kind of crappy, I'd expect us to go full modern European with something like the AW249 Fenice if we're going down the path of attack helos at all.

Ive heard the attack helo debate is AH64E vs AW249, tiger isnt even considered an option.

H175m I hear is a potential option as a medium lift Griffin replacement

 

[OldSolduer]

The regular wants to be able to deploy and operate as a division. Higher has determined in order to do that, we need dedicated rotary wing support. Including CAS, so that they may provide the maneuver division with CAS. We have to look at the context of a self supporting division with all the enablers.

I THINK there is a role for AH in the Canadian Army - even if it is small to start it could expand. First thing is to recruit and train crews for whatever one we MIGHT choose.

 

[Kirkhill]

Leonardo Helicopters AW249 Fenice - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Powerplant: 2 × General Electric CT7-8E6

Like the Grippen, built around an American engine.

The AW249 uses a variant of the same one used by the Apache



"The AH-64 is powered by two General Electric T700 turboshaft engines with high-mounted exhausts on either side of the fuselage. Various models of engines have been used on the Apache; those in British service use engines from Rolls-Royce. In 2004, General Electric Aviation began producing more powerful T700-GE-701D engines, rated at 2,000 shp (1,500 kW) for AH-64Ds."

Boeing AH-64 Apache - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The T700-GE-700 was followed by improved and uprated Army engine variants for the UH-60 Black Hawk and the AH-64 Apache helicopters, as well as marinized naval engine variants for the SH-60 Seahawk derivative of the Black Hawk, the SH-2G Seasprite, and the Bell AH-1W Supercobra. T700s are also used on Italian and commercial variants of the AgustaWestland EH101/AW101 helicopter, and Italian variants of the NHIndustries NH90 helicopter. These are all twin-engine machines, except for the three-engined EH101.

"The commercial version of the T700 is the "CT7", with the engine used on the Bell 214ST (an enlarged version of the Huey), commercial Black Hawks, and the Sikorsky S-92 derivative of the Black Hawk, all of which are twin-engine helicopters."

General Electric T700 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....

So the choices are an American helicopter with an American engine, an Italian helicopter with an American engine and other systems, or an American helicopter with a British engine.

You could try your luck with an Italian helicopter with American systems and a British engine but you might have to wait awhile for the Ajax committee to get back to you. I understand they are presently engaged.

 

[Kirkhill]

The rumour I've heard is Cyclone is going to be dumped in favour of the SH-60 Seahawk, H-175 doesn't make a lot of sense for its roles except maybe some on land.

The Tiger is old and kind of crappy, I'd expect us to go full modern European with something like the AW249 Fenice if we're going down the path of attack helos at all.

If that,
then this.

Armed BLACK HAWK® Helicopter

Equipped for precise target identification and engagement with forward firing guns, rockets and laser-designated air-to-ground missiles.

www.lockheedmartin.com

Are armed helicopters going to be engaging as closely as envisaged when the AH-1 and AH-64 were built around their chin-turrets?

 

[OldSolduer]

Leonardo Helicopters AW249 Fenice - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Powerplant: 2 × General Electric CT7-8E6

Like the Grippen, built around an American engine.

The AW249 uses a variant of the same one used by the Apache



"The AH-64 is powered by two General Electric T700 turboshaft engines with high-mounted exhausts on either side of the fuselage. Various models of engines have been used on the Apache; those in British service use engines from Rolls-Royce. In 2004, General Electric Aviation began producing more powerful T700-GE-701D engines, rated at 2,000 shp (1,500 kW) for AH-64Ds."

Boeing AH-64 Apache - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The T700-GE-700 was followed by improved and uprated Army engine variants for the UH-60 Black Hawk and the AH-64 Apache helicopters, as well as marinized naval engine variants for the SH-60 Seahawk derivative of the Black Hawk, the SH-2G Seasprite, and the Bell AH-1W Supercobra. T700s are also used on Italian and commercial variants of the AgustaWestland EH101/AW101 helicopter, and Italian variants of the NHIndustries NH90 helicopter. These are all twin-engine machines, except for the three-engined EH101.

"The commercial version of the T700 is the "CT7", with the engine used on the Bell 214ST (an enlarged version of the Huey), commercial Black Hawks, and the Sikorsky S-92 derivative of the Black Hawk, all of which are twin-engine helicopters."

General Electric T700 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....

So the choices are an American helicopter with an American engine, an Italian helicopter with an American engine and other systems, or an American helicopter with a British engine.

You could try your luck with an Italian helicopter with American systems and a British engine but you might have to wait awhile for the Ajax committee to get back to you. I understand they are presently engaged.

I see you’re doing your utmost to convey the “Who’s on First” skit

 

[ytz]

The rumour I've heard is Cyclone is going to be dumped in favour of the SH-60 Seahawk, H-175 doesn't make a lot of sense for its roles except maybe some on land.

The Tiger is old and kind of crappy, I'd expect us to go full modern European with something like the AW249 Fenice if we're going down the path of attack helos at all.

I know the Hawk rumours. And they were credible. But all of that is up in the air with the DIS.

I don't think people outside fully grasp the impact of the DIS.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I know the Hawk rumours. And they were credible. But all of that is up in the air with the DIS.

I don't think people outside fully grasp the impact of the DIS.

Aren't the the Turks developing an attack helo based on the Augusta A129 ?

 

[ytz]

Ive heard the attack helo debate is AH64E vs AW249, tiger isnt even considered an option.

What matters is what can be built in Canada. Especially when there are two OEMs already offering to build in Canada.

 

[ytz]

if the consideration is TacHel would it be wise to either a) maintain and re-build the C130H for refueling or purchase more J's equipped as tankers.

Why?

Have you seen the range available on our Chinook or the MV-75? Also, our Hercs train ALARP anyway. Rotary Wing AAR isn't strictly necessary.