Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[lenaitch]

The lack of Ventilation help keep the asbestos in place

Indoor ranges (properly built) are expensive.
And realistically it’s outrageously (prohibitively) expensive to build anything beyond 100m with multiple firing lanes.

Not only expensive to build but expensive to operate and maintain. The range in our headquarters requires regular changes of very expensive filters, plus regular blood tests for the training personnel. I don't know if workplace rules for the CAF are different but OHSA rules for public servants in Ontario are fairly strict. I assume that if the CAF wanted to engage the public, its rules would change as well.

Maybe an outdoor range in Petawawa or Gagetown might be attractive to a small number of locals, but I suspect the chances of building an outdoor range in a Canadian urban area - where the population is - would be vanishingly small.

Even the regular use of public outdoor ranges (which the majority of OPP members use simply because it is a deployed service) is subject to local concerns about noise and soil contamination.

How do you feel about virtual ranges for basic weapons handling, sight pictures and breath control?

An in-armoury adjunct to outside ranges.

I don't know how common they are but North Bay has a 'virtual' range.

 

[McG]

Halifax ? It is or was the biggest personnel base in the CAF.

I suspect the Navy does not have a lot of free space it wants to hand to an Army Reserve simulation centre. But you will note my comment was about the big Army bases.

That first criteria should make any urban/suburban facility about 45-60 mins max by transit.

That doesn’t make the big Army bases accessible via public transit. You can’t get to somewhere in 45-60 min on transit if transit doesn’t get closer than a 20 min jog away.

 

[FJAG]

Second, why not build more than just annual basic readiness? The more training that been be done locally, the more interest we'll have, the better the reserve experience and the more skilled they'll be. We should aim to be able to do all of BMQ and most of BMQ-L locally. Just throw in a field phase on weekends or in the summer.

I would expect that the vast majority of the soldiers who entered the Militia and went to war in 1914 got their start with the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (and the ammunition that the government provided to it) and the Royal Canadian Army Cadets. You can get a great jump on things, not to mention create awareness amongst the population in general, by making things easy for young folks to participate.

We bean count and overthink things too much to the point where we become moribund within our own heads.

 

[ytz]

That doesn’t make the big Army bases accessible via public transit. You can’t get to somewhere in 45-60 min on transit if transit doesn’t get closer than a 20 min jog away.

There were exactly two bases where I told Gemini to consolidate with the cities they are in: Valcartier and Edmonton. And fair enough if that's impractical don't put them on base. This wasn't meant to a precise plan. It's a thought exercise on Gemini that took me 10 mins, just to work out a rough order of magnitude on what it would take to have the kind of facilities and accessibilities the Singaporeans have, for most Canadians. You're free to build your own model too.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I suspect the Navy does not have a lot of free space it wants to hand to an Army Reserve simulation centre. But you will note my comment was about the big Army bases.

Believe it or not the Army is not the sole user or employer of small arms in the CAF.

 

[YZT580]

I would expect that the vast majority of the soldiers who entered the Militia and went to war in 1914 got their start with the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (and the ammunition that the government provided to it) and the Royal Canadian Army Cadets. You can get a great jump on things, not to mention create awareness amongst the population in general, by making things easy for young folks to participate.

We bean count and overthink things too much to the point where we become moribund within our own heads.

having a range in the basement of the high school certainly helped create interest.

 

[MilEME09]

Firstly, is that even an appropriate readiness standard going forward? Maybe CA reservists should have more allocated to them per year than an air force desk jockey like me in Ottawa.

Second, why not build more than just annual basic readiness? The more training that been be done locally, the more interest we'll have, the better the reserve experience and the more skilled they'll be. We should aim to be able to do all of BMQ and most of BMQ-L locally. Just throw in a field phase on weekends or in the summer.

Third for me is proximity. There has to be some goal. Do we want half the population within a 30 min drive, 45 min transit ride, etc. of a training facility? I'm particularly thinking of the reality that the number of driving licenses and car ownership is declining among young people. In any major city, you'll see young reservists taking the subway in.

1. God no, but thats what the powers that be have dictated

2. That requires more budget, and investment in the ARes, including more training time

3. Declining yes, im an advocate for mass transit between bases. ABs regional rail plan is think should have passenger trains stopping in suffield/ralston and wainwright. This would allow low cost, transportation of troops regularly

 

[Maxman1]

How do you feel about virtual ranges for basic weapons handling, sight pictures and breath control?

An in-armoury adjunct to outside ranges.

We already have that. It's called SATS range, and most armouries have one.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We already have that. It's called SATS range, and most armouries have one.

If they're not broken, like they used to be all the time, and you're not waiting for months for the guy from Quebec to travel three time zones to fix it for you

 

[childs56]

If they're not broken, like they used to be all the time, and you're not waiting for months for the guy from Quebec to travel three time zones to fix it for you

Honestly that is an easy fix. Contract a local company to fix the system and or put it in the contract that is has to be fixed within 24hrs and make the three time zone person get on the next plane to fix the problem.

 

[MilEME09]

If they're not broken, like they used to be all the time, and you're not waiting for months for the guy from Quebec to travel three time zones to fix it for you

Thankfully there is a project to replace the SAT, sadly its still some time before it happens

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If they're not broken, like they used to be all the time, and you're not waiting for months for the guy from Quebec to travel three time zones to fix it for you

I suspect that is a unit problem, not a contractor problem.

The small exposure I have has to SATs is that they are reliable and the contractor will fix stuff quickly. If they know about it…

 

[McG]

Believe it or not the Army is not the sole user or employer of small arms in the CAF.

Dude, everyone knows that, and nobody has challenged that. The proposal was for an Army Reserve training facility. Do you think the Navy wants to give-up space in Halifax for that?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Dude, everyone knows that, and nobody has challenged that. The proposal was for an Army Reserve training facility. Do you think the Navy wants to give-up space in Halifax for that?

Why would the RCN need to approve or give something up ?

Do know there is an ARes brigade HQ'd in Halifax ?

And Halifax has at least 6 ARes units ?

And Roughly 10k Reg force that could also use the ranges.

Seems like a good place invest.

 

[McG]

Do know there is an ARes brigade HQ'd in Halifax ?

And Halifax has at least 6 ARes units?

Yes. You are again introducing information that everyone knows.

Why would the RCN need to approve or give something up ?

The proposal we are discussing puts an indoor range in CFB Halifax, so you are looking at the dockyard, Stadaconda, or Shearwater. Even old 5 Div offices in RA Park are already being taken over by RCN. Local armouries are not part of nearby bases. So where do you build exquisite indoor ranges in CFB Halifax without impacting the Navy?

 

[ytz]

The proposal we are discussing puts an indoor range in CFB Halifax, so you are looking at the dockyard, Stadaconda, or Shearwater. Even old 5 Div offices in RA Park are already being taken over by RCN. Local armouries are not part of nearby bases. So where do you build exquisite indoor ranges in CFB Halifax without impacting the Navy?

You are taking this way too literally.

First of all the Singaporean facility is less than half the size of an Amazon warehouse. Basically, 50% larger than Denison in Toronto. You could fit that in an industrial park in any major city. They don't have to be on a base.

When thinking through the problem I was trying to think through what would increase accessibility to a training facility across Canada. My first cut was to put one for about every 400k people, give or take, but for individual CMAs. That estimated 83 facilities. Then I thought through overlapping coverage. And where cities and bases could consolidate. This brought the number down to 46. My other driver was creating equivalent facilities in more places to ensure that the same training can be done almost everywhere without a 2-3 hr bus ride and overnight stay at a training area. Hence, the idea to put a full facility at every Brigade Group HQ and CA MOB.

You're free to do the same exercise and lay out your thought process.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yes. You are again introducing information that everyone knows.


The proposal we are discussing puts an indoor range in CFB Halifax, so you are looking at the dockyard, Stadaconda, or Shearwater. Even old 5 Div offices in RA Park are already being taken over by RCN. Local armouries are not part of nearby bases. So where do you build exquisite indoor ranges in CFB Halifax without impacting the Navy?

You are taking this way too literally.

First of all the Singaporean facility is less than half the size of an Amazon warehouse. Basically, 50% larger than Denison in Toronto. You could fit that in an industrial park in any major city. They don't have to be on a base.

When thinking through the problem I was trying to think through what would increase accessibility to a training facility across Canada. My first cut was to put one for about every 400k people, give or take, but for individual CMAs. That estimated 83 facilities. Then I thought through overlapping coverage. And where cities and bases could consolidate. This brought the number down to 46. My other driver was creating equivalent facilities in more places to ensure that the same training can be done almost everywhere without a 2-3 hr bus ride and overnight stay at a training area. Hence, the idea to put a full facility at every Brigade Group HQ and CA MOB.

You're free to do the same exercise and lay out your thought process.

Or just establish hundreds of virtual shooting facilities across the country, run like a chain of indoor theme parks, implemented through a nation wide RFP process to private sector organizations.

If we acknowledge that simulators are 'good enough' to keep reservists and others up to speed, why not everyone else...

 

[ytz]

Or just establish hundreds of virtual shooting facilities across the country, run like a chain of indoor theme parks, implemented through a nation wide RFP process to private sector organizations.

You're focused on shooting only. Shooting paper circles at 100m is just a portion of the training remit for reservists. If the government is going to fund facilities for the purpose of training military personnel, surely it should actually cover most of the required training of said personnel?

If we acknowledge that simulators are 'good enough' to keep reservists and others up to speed, why not everyone else...

There's nothing stopping anybody from setting up virtual ranges beyond a business case.

In this case though, we aren't talking about virtual ranges. You can see the videos I posted about the Singaporean Multimillion Training Centre. They are facilitating live fire training there that goes well beyond anything our reservists do locally.

 

[Kirkhill]

This!

"We wanted to make it as easy as possible for people to serve. Even if it's a few hours per year."

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm just calling it that for lack of a better term. No idea what they will actually call it. I have a friend working at CMP on this and like I said they seem to see this as closer to Supp Res than PRes. It really sounds like a landing spot for a lot of people who don't just want to end up on the Supp Res list and never talk to anybody in the CAF again. And it's also seen as a way to surge skills and capabilities as needed during war time.

I do think that the scope and ambition will get dialed back as they work through the problem. Takes me half a day to use supply in Ottawa. I can't imagine what happens with 10 000 more people drawing from there. Adding 300k to anything more than Supp Res requires a substantial rejigging of a whole bunch of institutional systems.

I just wouldn't hold my breadth for anything approaching a force that is routinely training and drilling. We have that already. It's the PRes. This really sounds more like Supp Res with extra steps. Verified Supp Res?

I think the 300,000 on the roles will actually result in a turn-out force in the 20,000 to 50,000 being actually made available, and that not necessarily all at one time.