Canada's Leopard 2 Purchase

[AIC_2K5]

If we WERE to purchase these surplus leopards, would it not make sense to upgrade these tanks to Leo 2A6 standard? Germany is in the process of upgrading 225 of their A5s to A6, so it is doable.

If we were to buy these tanks, should we not add some extra cash to the $3 billion redicrected from the MGS deal to both purchase and upgrade these tanks to replace our current Leopards and give the armour corps a modern and potent weapon?

At this point in time, it seems clear that the MGS is dead, even if unoficially. Me thinks this and more will be included in the upcoming Defense Capability Plan.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Writing about defence issues can be a difficult beat because of the audience.  I hope David isn't discouraged.  Everyone who writes about military fact or fiction makes errors, and there are plenty of rivet- and button-counters out there paying attention to misused jargon, misunderstood doctrine, misidentified photographs, etc, etc.  So much for the bread.

One number that jumped out at me was "66".  If memory serves, that was the proposed number of MGS to be purchased, not the number of tanks in a battle group or anything else.  Also if memory serves, Canada originally purchased 114 Leo-1s.  (I read 128 stated above.)  The full war establishment of a "square" armoured regiment called for 78 tanks (and perhaps it still does).

"Battle group" has a specific meaning and doesn't refer to a fixed organization.  A few years back a battle group was still understood to be a task-organized element based on either an infantry battalion or armoured regiment reinforced by at least a squadron or company of the complementary (armour or infantry) arm (plus other attachments, and likely some detachments).  Has the definition changed?

Regardless, it makes little sense to speak of a "battle group's" worth of equipment as a particular number.  To acquire a "battle group's" worth of tanks could mean anything from a squadron to a regiment, plus spares, plus a training support organization (eg. at CMTC).  Depending on how the squadron establishment has evolved, that could be as few as 20 to as many as 100.

I highly recommend the Army Electronic Library as a resource for sorting out jargon and doctrine.

 

[vonGarvin]

Although we had 114 servicable Leos, the purchase was for 127 or 128 in the 70's.  The extras were war stock, I believe.  59 in Germany, 19 at the school (78).  The other 36?  C Sqn for 19, leaving 17?  I think there were some at the various tech schools and so forth.  But, these numbers are directly from my nether regions, except the original purchase number of 127 or 128.

 

[DavidAkin]

I would be remiss if I didn't report to all my new friends here ( ;D) that the guys at The Canadian Press filed this report late today...

==========
OTTAWA (CP) _ The Canadian military recently considered but ultimately rejected buying slightly used tanks from the German and Swiss armies, a spokesman said Wednesday.

A team of staff officers, who monitor the military surplus-equipment market, did talk to both European countries last June about purchasing little-used A-4 and A-5 versions of the Leopard-2 tank.

``They were checking prices that were out there, but that staff check did not go any further,'' said Lieut. Adam Thomson.

The decision not to proceed was made last summer mostly because military planners had not identified a need for the armoured vehicles, he said.
===========

 

[geo]

Hmmm.... wonder if that decision was made before the decision was made to deploy the 15 we do have going over there.............

 

[minicapt]

1. The original Leopard purchase was for about 115 tanks; the other ten vehicles were six ARVs and four bridgelayers.
2. The chap commenting on the Leo2's capabilities regarding fording was Col Marsh, who wore the cap badge of the 8th Canadian Hussars (Princess Louise's), and was at the Armour School when the Leo C1s arrived.
3. The Leopard has an inflatable sealing ring between turret and hull. allowing it to ford water over 1.5m in depth. Deep fording requires the use of the tower on the Crew Commander's hatch.
4. Canadian tanks have had a canister round since the the Centurion carried a 20lbr gun.
5. With regards to Mr Atkins' last comment, DLR maintains open files on various pieces of kit, should the opportunity surface for a short notice purchase. Acquisition of Leo 2s appears to remain a viable option.
6. Perseverance.

Cheers

 

[gnplummer421]

And driving into the water too fast will cause the tower to come off ;D

Gnplummer421

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Hmmm.... wonder if that decision was made before the decision was made to deploy the 15 we do have going over there.............

The decision not to proceed was made last summer mostly because military planners had not identified a need for the armoured vehicles, he said.

If the final decision was made last summer, it was certainly made before the deployment decision was taken.

Canada bought 114 gun tanks in 1978.  The MGS order was to be for 66 vehicles, concentrated in the LdSH(RC), the school(s), CMTC, and op stock.

 

[rmacqueen]

And driving into the water too fast will cause the tower to come off ;D

Speaking from experience? ;D

 

[gnplummer421]

Mmmm could have been one of the Csqn boys while fording somewhere in Deutchland....long ago.  ;D

Gnplummer

 

[AmmoTech90]

e.4. Canadian tanks have had a canister round since the the Centurion carried a 20lbr gun.
6. Perseverance.

Cheers

Gonna have to disagree with you here.  We had a cannister round for the 76mm on the Cougar.  The US had/have a Beehive for 105 Howitzer, I do not know (but I will check) to see if they had a 105mm Tk beehive, we did not have the beehive.  BTW the beehive fires flechettes not shot, so it is different from a cannister round.

D

 

[brihard]

Gonna have to disagree with you here.  We had a cannister round for the 76mm on the Cougar.  The US had/have a Beehive for 105 Howitzer, I do not know (but I will check) to see if they had a 105mm Tk beehive, we did not have the beehive.  BTW the beehive fires flechettes not shot, so it is different from a cannister round.

D

I was specifically referring to a new 105mm Canister round currently under development in the U.S. for their MGS, to complement the 120mm canister already in service with their tanks...

 

[George Wallace]

Mmmm could have been one of the Csqn boys while fording somewhere in Deutchland....long ago.  ;D

Gnplummer

Can you say "Hydrostatic Lock!"

Speaking about Cannister.  We trialed Cannister on the Leos in the '80's.  We did not stock it though.

 

[AmmoTech90]

I was specifically referring to a new 105mm Canister round currently under development in the U.S. for their MGS, to complement the 120mm canister already in service with their tanks...

And I was specially referring to minicapt's quote about having a cannister round for our tanks since the 20pdr.  I dont really count the Cougar as a tank.

D

 

[rmacqueen]

I dont really count the Cougar as a tank.

What???  You mean the recruiting office lied to me when I joined??? :threat:

 

[retiredgrunt45]

Ah i can remember when i was at the infantry school in Gagetown in "Demo Platoon" on a few occasions we were able to work with the leapords from the armoured school in a platoon attack. What I can recall following behind those beasts on foot was the noise from the engines, absolutley awsome and Deafening!!!! In Germany during fall Reforger and Gagetown was the only two occassions we got to work with the leo's directly, it was quite and experience, one i will never forget.

 

[McG]

I was specifically referring to a new 105mm Canister round currently under development in the U.S. for their MGS, to complement the 120mm canister already in service with their tanks...

The US had a 105 mm canister round in Vietnam.  I have on good authority that we had them in Germany, but that they don't exist in our inventory any more.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Let's clear up the cannister information.

The Canadians had cannister for their 20 pounder of the Centurion.

The Americans had it for their 90 MM on the M48.  Not for the 105.

Cannister has never been developed for the L7/M68, primarily because the fume extractor ports were too susceptable to damage.  (The 20 Pdr and the 90mm didn't have a fume extracor)  Beehive rounds work, because they keep the projectiles "packaged" until the projectiles leave the muzzle.  Any new cannister type round for the L7/M68 would have to work the same way, some kind of container to keep the projectiles from damaging the fume extractor ports.

Hope this clears up the confusion!

BTW, 114 Leo's is the correct number for MBT's.  George was right on the money if variants were added in.  We had 330 centurion MBT's.

 

[orange.paint]

I was having a discussion a few weeks back on what happened to the "bubble" tanks used for driver training.I was watching daily planet where natasha wanted to get rid of her car.Well they go to this guys farm in Ontario and there it is one of the bubble tanks in perfect condition.

Not new leopard stuff but for anyone who was wondering.

 

[George Wallace]

Sorry

I should have stated "RANT ON"  and then "RANT OFF"