Canada's Leopard 2 Purchase

[George Wallace]

But a canister round on leaving th barrel is just a large claymore mine no? who cares about accurate thats more a right direction sort of round no?

I'm not talking about the 'canister', but about the other rounds we would be firing over (hopefully) your head     in the support role.   ;D




Nothing ruins your day like a "Drop Short".    ;D

 

[gnplummer421]

I guess my thought was meant to mean that a barrel is easier to replace than a life, so in that sense I felt it was good to have an effective tool such as that round to help the troops, but if it ends up hurting them then I guess I was wrong......

 

[HItorMiss]

Roger that.

But I think gunplumber I think was more saying that the canister round burns the barrel faster yes but is a useful round, so it should be used regardless of the effects and then a Leo pulled on inspection not sent out with the burnt ineffective fire.

 

[George Wallace]

I guess my thought was meant to mean that a barrel is easier to replace than a life, so in that sense I felt it was good to have an effective tool such as that round to help the troops, but if it ends up hurting them then I guess I was wrong......

You're not wrong.  I just took it to the extreme, that they would land up firing a lot of canister and exaggerating the wear.......as for changing barrels.......bring up the ARV and ................yeah that is a lot of fun.

 

[Kirkhill]

Wouldn't firing canister down an L7 be equivalent to firing a shot-gun shell down a rifle?  

 

[George Wallace]

Wouldn't firing canister down an L7 be equivalent to firing a shot-gun shell down a rifle? 

Should be.  How long before the rifling would destroyed in that case, and then the rifle would no longer have any accuracy using the 'majority' of it's bullets?  Canister is meant as an EMERGENCY solution in an extreme situation.  If any debris remains in the barrel and a normal round is fired, the barrel will split like a banana.   A deadly event in itself.  Now you may have friendly casualties and a tank that is NFG but for MG fire.

 

[HItorMiss]

I think the round is in a sheel like a Sabot that falls away after leaving the barrel.


*EDIT: Or I could be right the heck out of er!

 

[gnplummer421]

I actually used to get quite excited when I had to do a major component replacement. I did a complete Gunners station one time for CAT 91, amazing how easily you can get parts when doing well in an international competition. Intead of it being trucked up to Graf, a helicopter brought it instead. And in the 90's no less.

Damn I miss those days....

Ok you guys either type really fast or I'm drinking too much beer

 

[HItorMiss]

WE type fast, and I'm drinking beer!

 

[tomahawk6]

Here is YouTube video of the Leo's in Afghanistan.

http://www.canadaka.net/link.php?id=15862

 

[HItorMiss]

Honestly though I would have loved a Leo there the day I ate some metal...heck even the day before to really paste some "suspicious" area's...and you know what in war who give's 2 wooden nickles about burning out a barrel?

 

[Jantor]

Howdy,

I've got a question. Could the L7 in the Leo fire a M494 APERS-T beehive round? 

 

[Kirkhill]

Picatinny-developes 105 mm MGS ammo achieves full materiel release ............The MGS will also yield a new anti-personnel capability in the high-performance canister round, the XM1040, designed by an OPM-MAS and ARDEC team

http://www.rdecom.army.mil/rdemagazine/200601/itf_picatinny105mm.html
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh/252.pdf

It looks like HoM may be closer to the mark than we are George.  Apparently the US Army has developed a 105mm Canister for the M68/L7.

August 06 - L-3 Communications BT Fuze Products, has been selected by the U.S. Army ARDEC to produce the 105MM M1040 Canister Tank Round under a Multi-Year Contract. The award is for canister cartridges and cartridge cases for the M1040 system used by the Stryker Brigade.

http://www.l-3com.com/BTFuze/html/news.htm

 

[AmmoTech90]

First off to answer Jantor's question, yes the M494 could be fired from the Leopard assuming that the ballistic computer has round's data entered, other wise it's just going to go wandering off somewhere for a cup of tea when it leaves the barrel.
Next, there is a big difference between flechette and cannister as far as barrel wear goes.  Cannister is bunch of metal pieces in a tin can that is fired down the barrel.  Centrifugal forces rip this can apart and the target effect starts amlost immediately after the muzzle is cleared.  Unfortunately those same forces are present in the tin as it still moving down the barrel so if there are any manufacturing flaws in the tin it can lead to bits of metal being dragged down the barrel at a high rate of knots.
Flechette (APERS more accurately) is fairly conventional looking projectile that carries a payload of darts.  This projectile is fuzed with a time fuze.  The time set corresponds to the range you want to flechette pattern to appear at.  At the time set the nose of the projectile is removed and the flechettes disperse.  The artillery version could be set for zero time to function almost as soon as it left the muzzle, not sure about the M494.  Think about the old 76 smoke round on the flechettes come out the front instead of smoke cannisters out the back.

All that being said, the Isrealis dont seem to impressed with the M494, see here http://www.janes.com/regional_news/africa_middle_east/news/jdw/jdw010522_2_n.shtml
but there might be something to it given this renewed research into the M1040.

D

 

[Lance Wiebe]

It apeears that both the XM1028 and the XM1040 are both designed to keep the payload encased until the projectile leaves the muzzle.  This makes sense, in that the damage caused by a pure "shotgun" style round would be almost unacceptable.  The wear at the fume extractor for both weapons (120 and 105) would be intense.

I also assume that is why I read the range to be "100-500 meters".  The pellets would not have time to disperse before the 100 meter point.

I haven't seen anything available to me that says that the XM0140 has actually been fired from the MGS.  The XM1028 is undergoing trilas now.

 

[Jantor]

First off to answer Jantor's question, yes the M494 could be fired from the Leopard assuming that the ballistic computer has round's data entered, other wise it's just going to go wandering off somewhere for a cup of tea when it leaves the barrel.

Thanks for your answer 

 

[The Bread Guy]

It appears the Leopards are getting some tracked company - shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Canada to upgrade armoured fleet
40 tracked vehicles being shipped to Afghanistan
CanWest News Service reporter, Calgary Herald, 25 Nov 06
Article Link - Permalink

The Canadian Forces will ship more armoured vehicles to Afghanistan to help ease the wear and tear on the military's combat fleet in Kandahar.

About 40 tracked M113 armoured personnel carriers will be shipped early in the New Year, a move that will give commanders another type of vehicle to use when the wheeled LAV-3, as well as Bison armoured
carriers, are undergoing maintenance, said army spokesman Capt. Sylvain Chalifour.

In addition, some of the Bisons now in Afghanistan will have to be returned to Canada for refit work, so the M113s will make up for that shortfall, he said.

There are already several M113s in Kandahar, Chalifour added.

Afghanistan's terrain is exceptionally hard on vehicles and equipment of all types, according to military officials.

Army officers privately say the M113s are also needed to roll over some of the obstacles that have stopped or slowed down the wheeled LAV-3s. While the LAV-3 is well regarded by the troops, it has had
difficulty driving over some irrigation ditches during fighting in the Afghan countryside.

Tracked vehicles, such as the M113, will be able to negotiate such obstacles better. Officers also say the M113 can keep up to the Leopard tank already in Kandahar.

In September, the military announced it was sending Leopards to Afghanistan in a bid to boost firepower and protection for its soldiers.

Earlier this week, one of the Leopards hit a mine during a training exercise outside Kandahar.

The explosion blew off one of the tank's tracks, but it was repaired later that day.

No soldiers were injured in the incident.

 

[rmacqueen]

Honestly though I would have loved a Leo there the day I ate some metal...heck even the day before to really paste some "suspicious" area's...and you know what in war who give's 2 wooden nickles about burning out a barrel?

The problem is not just the burning out of a barrel but the replacement.  It is fine to talk about the gun plummers changing one in KAF but there is also the down time while everyone waits for the new barrel to arrive.  Given the operational limitations how long would it take to have a new barrel flown in from our stocks in Canada?  During that period the Leo sits NS. 

As well, in a battle situation, disregard for the damage could lead to a worse outcome.  The discussion of firing these rounds seems to centre around the idea of firing a canister round and that is the end of it.  The reality would be completely different.  In an actual battle situation the likelihood would be the firing of canister followed by conventional.  As George pointed out, the remainder of any debris would cause the barrel to split and probably the premature detonation of the round.  Anyone even close to the tank when this happened would be lucky to escape with even minor injuries, not to mention the effects on the crew.

Canister is also a round designed to be used at close range and not extremely accurate once it is fired.  This is not a round that heads to the target and explodes but sends rather large chunks of steel in an ever expanding cloud.  Basically, anything between the end of the barrel and the target is at risk of being hit.  Again, as George pointed out, it is a tool to be used for emergencies only.

 

[HItorMiss]

Mcqueen

My experience tells me differently. when you come under sustained fire you use absolutely everything to win that fight, and worry about what has to be fixed when it's all said and done.

*Edit: Inflamatory and baseless, now changed to express more clearly what I was getting at.

 

[George Wallace]

Mcqueen

My experience tells me differently, but hey what do I know I was only there.

Actually HoM your experience doesn't count.  Yes, you were there and you experienced that, but the Leopards were not.  You have little experience with tanks, and little knowledge of their Gunnery and ammo.  It voids everything you have to say reference the subject of Canister and it's employment.  You have made a few rather poor statements about burnt out/worn barrels and have been right off base on that subject. 

If you want, we can compare the tank barrel to the C6 or C9 barrel.  In a TIC, when the shooting gets heavy, it is easy to change a hot or burnt out barrel on a C6 or C9 and maintain accuracy.  You are not going to do the same with the Main Gun on a Tank.  You may think nothing of 5.56 or 7.62 rounds cartwheeling down range, but I would hope that you would be a bit more worried about 105 mm rounds doing the same.