Canada's New (Conservative) Foreign Policy

[The Bread Guy]

.... Mr Akin suggests, in his column that Prime Minister Harper may have gone too far, is breaking new ground, in how he defines anti-Semitism in his speech (today) in the Israeli Knesset ....

In case you're interested, the text of the speech is attached.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The understanding that it is right to support Israel, because after generations of persecution, the Jewish people
deserve their own homeland and deserve to live safely and peacefully in that homeland.
“Let me repeat that: Canada supports Israel fundamentally because it is right to do so.

That must be the part that gets the left choking.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The understanding that it is right to support Israel, because after generations of persecution, the Jewish people
deserve their own homeland and deserve to live safely and peacefully in that homeland.
“Let me repeat that: Canada supports Israel fundamentally because it is right to do so.

That must be the part that gets the left choking.

And it is problematic because the Zionist claim to a Jewish homeland, a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael can, was, accomplished only at the expense of the rights, including the right to property which I claim is a fundamental right, of the people, Muslim people, who already lived there.

The Jews could and did give shape to their claim by purchase, in the first half of the 20th century, aided, often, by corrupt Ottoman officials and, later, by sympathetic Brits. The rest was accomplished in three "just," defensive, wars in 1948 and 1967 and in 1973. But the word "accomplished" is not good ... the Arabs have not acquiesced to the new status quo, in fact the Arabs, supported by much of the US led West, wants Israel to withdraw to its pre-1967 borders, the so-called Green Line.

Most people of even moderately good will accept that Israel needs some adjustments of the Green Line to provide a modicum of security; few, even amongst Israelis, agree with all that the Israeli settlers claim.

Prime Minister Harper's claim that we, Canadians, agree that "the Jewish people deserve their own homeland and deserve to live safely and peacefully in that homeland," is, I believe correct. He, somewhat pointedly, did not specify which borders are necessary to secure that deserved safety and peace. My guess (and I'm not any sort of expert on the Middle East) is that President Obama is asking too much, knowing he will not get it, as a way to demonstrate his good will towards the Arabs and the Iranians. I'm also guessing that Israel will "hold out," knowing that the Americans are playing a "mid term" game. My last guess is that the exiting "wall" will stay but, eventually, Israel will, fairly happily, give up most settlements, even the large ones in the West Bank. It seems to me, maybe I'm dreaming, that one of the solutions to Israel's internal Arab demographic time bomb is a successful, prosperous Palestinian state.

 

[Journeyman]

UN peacekeeping was, then as now, a sideshow.

  Heresy!  Obviously you haven't read Ian McKay's Warrior Nation: Rebranding Canada in an Age of Anxiety.  We are peacekeepers dammit! :tempertantrum:
...although even our peacekeeping was as handmaiden to imperialist empires.


OK, I hope you haven't wasted time reading this revisionist clap-trap by the Queen's Professor of "Canadian Left-Wing Movements."

 

[George Wallace]

OK, I hope you haven't wasted time reading this revisionist clap-trap by the Queen's Professor of "Canadian Left-Wing Movements."

Thank God I haven't even heard of him.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There is no doubt that Palestinians lived in the area. What is interesting is the amount of Arab immigration under the British Mandate to the area, so a significant number have about as much historical rights to the land as the Jewish post war immigrants. One can argue the historical grievances but the reality is that in about 20 years there will be no one left alive that lived in a settlement taken over in the 1948 war. My reading of the history is that the Jew took the 2 state solution as better than Nada, the Arabs rejected it outright and decided that force of arms would purge the Jews from the region once and for all, they did an awful job of it and lost. Atrocities happened on both sides, funny enough the British trained Arab Armies were not part of those events and even went so far as to protect captured Israelis from local Palestinian Mobs. the problem of arguing historical rights is that there is clear evidence that the Jews were forcibly expelled from the region in roman times and remaining one persecuted by Muslim rulers who invaded the area. So where does one stop on the Historical highway? Do we give the land back to the Philistines?
Plus to bring the issue closer to home, we all live on "stolen land" At least the Arabs-Israelis fought an open war with a clear winner and loser. Here for the most part we took the land by deceit and guile. In fact 130% of BC is claimed land. 

 

[Kirkhill]

Some peculiarities....

If Harper (or Mulroney) bends to the Americans he is toadying.

In this instance he is not bending to the Americans.  He is defying them. 

He has stepped up from the merely irritating Anti-American stance he is taking on the Keystone pipeline, declaring he won't take no for an answer.

If Trudeau (or Chretien) defied the Americans Hosannas were sung.

Since singing hosannas for Harper is impolitic then it is good that Harper is seen as toadying to the only satan greater than America.


WRT the Pentagon and the Military Industrial Complex

The Generals split on Iraq with Shinsecki notably declaring he needed more troops for the job before being removed from the scene.

The Generals declared against Vietnam.  MacNamara was a civilian and universally loathed by the folks in uniform.

The Generals wanted a  "go big or go home" commitment on Cuba.  The civilians delivered the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban missile crisis, a fifty seven year embargo and a constant threat to the US just off its shores.

Eisenhower railed against the Military-Industrial Complex,  that peculiar form of corporatism specific to the commercial barons that make their living from selling goods to the Generals and the Generals that buy them.

That is not the same as the Pentagon in its proper sphere of expertise: Wars and winning them.

Back to the Keystone and the pollution laws - approve Keystone, enact the pollution laws.

Don't approve Keystone, with its benefits to the Canadian exchequer and we will refrain from further endangering our exchequer by enacting another punitive tax.

Quid pro something or other....


Lawrence Martin and I are seldom of a mind.


WRT the Zionist claim on land in Israel

The previous governing authority (prior to the League of Nations / United Nations) was the Ottoman empire.  Now I don't know what Ottoman laws were on holding title and working the land but I would be surprised to learn that all the farmers of the region, let alone all the other residents, were fee simple tenants.

Given that, and despite the fact that some faction or other over there, relocated a mine that detonated under the Bedford carrying my old man in 1947, I really am not bothered by the Arabs doing what they can/could to keep out the DPs.  Equally I am not bothered by the DPs doing what they can to secure themselves.  Both parties are acting in a rational manner. 

Beyond that one can only wish them luck and wave them a fond farewell.

 

[The Bread Guy]

....  My reading of the history is that the Jew took the 2 state solution as better than Nada, the Arabs rejected it outright and decided that force of arms would purge the Jews from the region once and for all, they did an awful job of it and lost ....

More than once, in fact ....

I read it the same way - funny how those calling for those U.N. resolutions to be respected don't often mention this one.

 

[Kamikaze1655]

This Pro-Isreali makes me sick. Hopefully It will wane when the Liberals take power, but then again I don't think it will be much different. ( I am a Palestinian)

 

[Journeyman]

This Pro-Isreali makes me sick. Hopefully It will wane when the Liberals take power, but then again I don't think it will be much different. ( I am a Palestinian)

Welcome to Canada.  We'd prefer people leave their squabbles back in the 'home country.'


.....and driving without texting....oh, and shoulder-checking before changing lanes; those would be nice too.

 

[missing1]

  :ditto:

 

[OldSolduer]

This Pro-Isreali makes me sick. Hopefully It will wane when the Liberals take power, but then again I don't think it will be much different. ( I am a Palestinian)

Perhaps you would feel more at home in Nazi Germany or an anti Semetic nation.

Have YOU EVER read about WW2 and what happened to six million Jews?

Shake your head

 

[Remius]

Welcome to Canada.  We'd prefer people leave their squabbles back in the 'home country.'


.....and driving without texting....oh, and shoulder-checking before changing lanes; those would be nice too.

And yet here we are discussing it in this very thread.

 

[Remius]

Perhaps you would feel more at home in Nazi Germany or an anti Semetic nation.

Have YOU EVER read about WW2 and what happened to six million Jews?

Shake your head

Well that's the strongest use of Godwin's Law I've seen in a while.  Being opposed to Israeli policy does not make one anti-Semetic. 

Also note he's a 15 year old kid who likely needs a bit more life experience and education. 

Not agreeing with him but your response was a bit over the top.

 

[George Wallace]

Well that's the strongest use of Godwin's Law I've seen in a while.  Being opposed to Israeli policy does not make one anti-Semetic. 

Also note he's a 15 year old kid who likely needs a bit more life experience and education. 

Not agreeing with him but your response was a bit over the top.

As noted in his post; he is Palestinian.  If he is 15 and so indoctrinated here in Canada, we have a problem.

 

[Remius]

As noted in his post; he is Palestinian.  If he is 15 and so indoctrinated here in Canada, we have a problem.

And?  He's Palestinian.  So I would gather that he isn't too much in favour of Israeli policies.  It's not like he's the only one.  The Irish aren't too fond of the English for their policies either.  I doubt you would find too many Tibetans that are fondf of Chinese policies or Aboriginal's here in Canada that are fond of Canadian policies.

Tell me what the problem is George.  Is it because he's pro Palestinian?  Palastinian in Canada who is pro-Palestinian?  Does that make one indoctrinated?

I'm not sure I'm a fan of what I think you might be insinuating.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm not sure I'm a fan of what I think you might be insinuating.

Don't be a fan.  That is your choice.  If, however, this kid is so indoctrinated, there is a problem and sticking your head in the sand is not going to make it go away.

This is not just a problem with Palestinians and Israelis.  It is a problem with many other cultures and nationalities who have emigrated here.  There are some Croats who harbour strong prejudices and hatred towards Serbs and vis versa.  Sheiks who harbour ill will against other religions.  The examples can go on and on.  To ignore these problems does not make them go away.  Or, is that the Canada you want to live in; one of continuing hatred and violence against a segment of our society who emigrated here to escape such violence?  If you want to ignore it, again, that is your choice.

 

[Remius]

No George, I'd also like to live in a country where one can disagree without being called a Nazi or be labelled indoctrinated just because they disagree with your point of view.  That certainy does not make things better.

I'm betting many non-palestinians agree with him.  That doesn't make them (or him) indoctrinated. 

 

[PuckChaser]

I'm betting many non-palestinians agree with him.  That doesn't make them (or him) indoctrinated.

Yeah, but claiming to get sick when you hear Pro-Israel policies smacks of intolerance and just adds fuel to the fire.

There's a solution to the whole Israel/Palestine mess, but it won't be found by hurling rockets at civilians or by bombing a city block as a suspected launch site.

 

[Journeyman]

The Irish aren't too fond of the English for their policies either.  I doubt you would find too many Tibetans that are fondf of Chinese policies.......

Not to belabour your logical disconnect, but this isn't Ireland or Tibet, it's Canada.  Why should we be tolerant of other people importing old world hatreds?

If this kid thinks he's got a sufficient grasp of geo-politics to come here and spout his bigoted clap-trap, then he should be mature enough to deal with the responses -- let him speak for himself. 

If he can cobble together a rational explanation of why Canada's foreign policy 'makes him sick,' I'd be more than happy to listen.  I don't hold out any great hopes though; I suspect it will merely be the shallow ramblings of a 15-year old, (likely Canadian-born) living a good life in Calgary, who thinks it's cool to have a cause because he's 'been oppressed for decades, if not hundreds of years' -- without the remotest clue of the knock-on effect, on himself and others around him, of his unthinkingly spouting hatred.


There are opinions, and there are informed opinions; they're not equal, and they're not entitled to equal respect.