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Canada's tanks

I’m not a fan of mixed Divisions FWIW. A Division is a maneuver formation, the largest type of maneuver formation but a maneuver formation nonetheless.

I don’t like the mix of “medium” wheeled vehicles in with Tracked forces. If the desire of for more Infantry in the Armorer Divisions, then one can either put more Infantry into the CAB’s, thus having more ‘bayonets’ at the BN and Bde level or instead of adding a SBCT, have a AMPV Infantry Bde.

I’d rather have the Strykers reserved for APC’s for mobile protection options for Light units in COIN type, or if the Force structure allows have a Medium Division that can provide support where needed. I just think that the Medium wheeled vehicles should be LAV 2.0 type vehicles due to the C-130 transport aspect.

If you need more protection than they offer, then you have likely entered the zone where the ABCT is needed.
 
I kind of like being able to stand out of range of whatever the other chap is throwing at me.

View attachment 93016

The Israelis were achieving 2-3 km kills against T62s with those 60mm guns and APFSDS, equivalent to what they were achieving with the RO L7 105 APDS. 80 rounds on board.

At very least you force the other guy to spend more time and effort bringing in his heavies while keeping his light forces suppressed.
When was the IDF using the 60mm high-velocity cannon on operations?

I do appreciate the higher rate of fire and number of stowed on-board kills associated with guns over missiles, but there might be a reason why that 60mm cannon did not enter operational service on AFVs outside of Chile. The 60mm high-velocity cannon seems to be an engineering solution looking for a problem to solve. If you want to kill tanks from a light chassis then ATGMs are your answer.

The M10 Booker, and I am not here to defend it, has been conceived as a bunker-buster/direct fire support system and not a tank-killer. The advantage of the 105mm in that case is the HE payload for its expected role over 25mm to 25mm chain guns and ATGMs that might otherwise be fielded.
 
When was the IDF using the 60mm high-velocity cannon on operations?

I do appreciate the higher rate of fire and number of stowed on-board kills associated with guns over missiles, but there might be a reason why that 60mm cannon did not enter operational service on AFVs outside of Chile. The 60mm high-velocity cannon seems to be an engineering solution looking for a problem to solve. If you want to kill tanks from a light chassis then ATGMs are your answer.

The M10 Booker, and I am not here to defend it, has been conceived as a bunker-buster/direct fire support system and not a tank-killer. The advantage of the 105mm in that case is the HE payload for its expected role over 25mm to 25mm chain guns and ATGMs that might otherwise be fielded.

I think they mounted it to some super Shermans, not sure they saw combat service.
 
When was the IDF using the 60mm high-velocity cannon on operations?

I do appreciate the higher rate of fire and number of stowed on-board kills associated with guns over missiles, but there might be a reason why that 60mm cannon did not enter operational service on AFVs outside of Chile. The 60mm high-velocity cannon seems to be an engineering solution looking for a problem to solve. If you want to kill tanks from a light chassis then ATGMs are your answer.

The M10 Booker, and I am not here to defend it, has been conceived as a bunker-buster/direct fire support system and not a tank-killer. The advantage of the 105mm in that case is the HE payload for its expected role over 25mm to 25mm chain guns and ATGMs that might otherwise be fielded.

I think they mounted it to some super Shermans, not sure they saw combat service.

@Halifax Tar Tar is correct @TangoTwoBravo. The only country to put the 60mm into service was Chile. The other variants (Super Shermans and M113s, Piranhas and Centauros etc) were never more than prototypes with the results I quoted coming from range tests.

Where this entire line of thought began was with the M10 Booker and its failure to meet the requirements that would have permitted it to replace the Stryker MGS as an infantry support vehicle that could be air-dropped, LAPES'd or even TALO'd.

The Stryker MGS was at least air portable in the C130 and a LAV-25 was air-dropped by the 82nd. 82nd Airborne Division's 3rd Brigade Combat Team airdrop tests Light Armor Vehicle

Working with that as a base, and remembering that a major criticism of the MGS was its auto-loader and its small magazine, got me to wondering about what would happen if the calibre of the gun were reduced. That led me down the trail from 105 to 90 to 76 and ultimately to the 60.

What attracted me to the 60 was that it had a track record with auto-loaders and that, with the right ammunition, it could add to anti-tank defences, or at least manage light armour.

The 60 HVMS, from what I could gather actually started with a 76mm cartridge case. That case was common to the 17 pdr AT gun, the gun on the Sherman Firefly, the Curassier/AMX-13 and the Rooikat, which used a variant of the OtoMelara SR76/62. And OtoMelara, like Bofors, had experience in compact, reliable autoloaders.

Based on that I indulged myself in a thought experiment that resulted in taking the Stryker/Bison hull, using the overhead mount of the MGS but downsizing the 105 to the 60/76. My next leap after that was to question whether a variant of the Bofors 57 autoloader could be considered.

All of this is against the backdrop of autocannons of increasing calibre being considered in a variety of roles, up to and including air defence.

....

The underlying premise is that there are at least three types of forces - light, medium and heavy. The dichotomy between light and heavy has been easy. Light means foot borne. Heavy means track borne. But Medium seems to mean everything and nothing.

That is where I proposed 30 tonne vehicles were already Heavies and no longer Mediums and that 60-70 tonne vehicles were Super Heavies. The Super Heavies are not just hard to transport but put a lot of civilian infrastructure under stress. That means, in my opinion, that their application to the battlefield will be limited. But it also means that, on the right battlefield, they are going to be necessary because the opposition likely has them.

Light Forces are primarily foot borne soldiers that can be easily transported by air, both fixed wing and rotary, to any battlefield, including a tank rich battlefield. That however would not be a wise course of action. They are better deployed where tanks are not likely to be found, or at least, not found in great numbers. Having said that even a lightly armoured self-propelled gun that can be transported by helicopter, or TALO'd by C130, can add a lot to the capabilities of a light force if the enemy doesn't have an equivalent asset. My own touchstone on that is the impact that 4 Scorpions and 4 Scimitars had on the Falklands. I have been a fan of adding the CVRT to the Canadian Army to support its light troops, like the SSF and the CAR, since the 1970s. And I considered the AVGP to have been a poor decision at the time. My own preferences were the CVRTs for the SSF and the Infantry Recce Platoons and the Marder for 4 CMBG. But nobody was asking me. :).

With the arrival of the LAV-25/Coyote/Bison as amphibious 8x8s then I started to reconcile myself to the advantage of a 15 tonne air-portable wheeled force. I was strongly influenced by the Saladin/Saracen/Stalwart solution for End of Empire policing. They were also useful for moving troops on the flanks and between the front and rear. In addition they were an effective thickener, as the Staghound had been when employed by alongside the 6th Airborne Div in Palestine.

....

So, while I appreciate the sentiment of just sending a tank, I qualify that by asking if the tank can be sent, and can it be sent in useful quantities, and further, what can the enemy put in the field.

...

I appreciate that any force can be over-matched both in terms of numbers and capabilities. My position is that the more capabilities I can carry with me into the field the more likely I am going to be able to over-match my opposition. At very least I will force the opposition to expend more effort trying to over-match my force by bringing heavier elements into the field at considerable logistical cost.
 
I’m not a fan of mixed Divisions FWIW.
I'm with you, but . . .

I think the 2 +1 structure of the armored division is based on the fact that there is a large existing investment in the six active duty and 2 ARNG SBCTs and something needs to be done with them. The Army 2030 plan bulks out the 11 active and 5 ARNG ABCTs with SBCTs. If each armored division had 3 ABCTs, the US would only be able to form 5 1/3 armor/armor (reinforced) divisions. Using the Strykers they get 3 armored (reinforced) divisions (1 Cav, 1 Armd, 34 Inf (ARNG)) and 4 armored divisions (1 Inf, 3 Inf, 4 Inf and 36 Inf (ARNG)); 7 in total.

I guess the proof in the pudding of the lack of a role of the Stryker as a full divisional capability in its own right is that there is no such thing as a Stryker division. There is the 7 Inf in Washington with 2 active and 1 ARNG SBCTs but it's not an actual deployable division but a holding and training organization targeted on reinforcing the SBCT in S Korea. In addition there are two SBCTs that form independent Cavalry Regiments (2 and 3rd Cav.) I think this proves that the concept of a rapidly air deployable, medium-weight SBCT as the quick reaction force envisioned at the turn of the century is officially dead. The concept never worked due to lack of air lift, and now is even less practical with the weight of the Stryker and LAV 6.0.

While I prefer an armored division with 3 ABCTs myself, I can see the justification (or rationalization) of the operational role for a single SBCT in an armored brigade which also has 2 ABCTs.

OTOH pretending that the LAV 6 is an IFV and having a light battalion in a CMBG along side two LAV bns cannot be rationalized from an operational point of view, merely an administrative one and badly at that.

Every time that I go through one of these exercises and take a look at how the US Army has half of its combat, CS and CSS power in its reserve and ARNG components and then look at the shit show Canada has it makes me want to scream and throttle some people. I won't pretend that an ARNG ABCT, or SBCT, or even an IBCT, is the equivalent of its active duty counterpart, but its head and shoulders above our CBGs. The CS and CSS ARNG and reserve brigades are war winners.

🍻
 
Begleitpanzer 57 prototype by Germany.https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/westgermany/begleitpanzer-57-aifsv/
This might make a good multi purpose gun system, even if it was for Rear area Air defense, tie in with a Radar system. Mount it on a tank chassis.
 
@Halifax Tar Tar is correct @TangoTwoBravo. The only country to put the 60mm into service was Chile. The other variants (Super Shermans and M113s, Piranhas and Centauros etc) were never more than prototypes with the results I quoted coming from range tests.

Where this entire line of thought began was with the M10 Booker and its failure to meet the requirements that would have permitted it to replace the Stryker MGS as an infantry support vehicle that could be air-dropped, LAPES'd or even TALO'd.

The Stryker MGS was at least air portable in the C130 and a LAV-25 was air-dropped by the 82nd. 82nd Airborne Division's 3rd Brigade Combat Team airdrop tests Light Armor Vehicle
The Styker MGS nor LAV-III series is not C-130 transportable.
Despite some claims to the contrary.
Too heavy, too high, and too wide.
There is a USAF release on this, that I haven’t found an OS version of.

The LAV 2.0 series was.
Working with that as a base, and remembering that a major criticism of the MGS was its auto-loader and its small magazine, got me to wondering about what would happen if the calibre of the gun were reduced. That led me down the trail from 105 to 90 to 76 and ultimately to the 60.

What attracted me to the 60 was that it had a track record with auto-loaders and that, with the right ammunition, it could add to anti-tank defences, or at least manage light armour.

The 60 HVMS, from what I could gather actually started with a 76mm cartridge case. That case was common to the 17 pdr AT gun, the gun on the Sherman Firefly, the Curassier/AMX-13 and the Rooikat, which used a variant of the OtoMelara SR76/62. And OtoMelara, like Bofors, had experience in compact, reliable autoloaders.

Based on that I indulged myself in a thought experiment that resulted in taking the Stryker/Bison hull, using the overhead mount of the MGS but downsizing the 105 to the 60/76.
The original Stryker was a LAV III base, the current is a LAV 6.0 (albeit larger power pack now). The Styker is not a LAV 2.0 base like the Bison, Coyote and LAV-25.
 
The Styker MGS nor LAV-III series is not C-130 transportable.
Despite some claims to the contrary.
Too heavy, too high, and too wide.
There is a USAF release on this, that I haven’t found an OS version of.

The LAV 2.0 series was.

The original Stryker was a LAV III base, the current is a LAV 6.0 (albeit larger power pack now). The Styker is not a LAV 2.0 base like the Bison, Coyote and LAV-25.

Seen.

Stryker was originally conceived as C130 transportable - until the same team that created the Booker got their hands on it. The same team that decided they absolutely had to have a 105 rather than a smaller gun. The same team that shot down the DENEL 105 SPH LAV which actually was C130 transportable.

Continuous development of what is wanted rather than what is possible.
 
When was the IDF using the 60mm high-velocity cannon on operations?

I do appreciate the higher rate of fire and number of stowed on-board kills associated with guns over missiles, but there might be a reason why that 60mm cannon did not enter operational service on AFVs outside of Chile. The 60mm high-velocity cannon seems to be an engineering solution looking for a problem to solve. If you want to kill tanks from a light chassis then ATGMs are your answer.

The M10 Booker, and I am not here to defend it, has been conceived as a bunker-buster/direct fire support system and not a tank-killer. The advantage of the 105mm in that case is the HE payload for its expected role over 25mm to 25mm chain guns and ATGMs that might otherwise be fielded.
For Chile the 60mm was a way to make their Sherman M4's competitive at minimal costs in regards to the likley threats around them.
 
Seen.

Stryker was originally conceived as C130 transportable - until the same team that created the Booker got their hands on it. The same team that decided they absolutely had to have a 105 rather than a smaller gun. The same team that shot down the DENEL 105 SPH LAV which actually was C130 transportable.

Continuous development of what is wanted rather than what is possible.

Further to

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Based on 8x8, the LSPH's weight only 18.2 tonnes, air transportable with C-130 Hercules but can fire HE projectile for 31 km range (photo : casr)

Light self-propelled howitzer weight 18.2 tons, with a wheeled chassis, the inherent self-deploy mobility, firing without having to install stable bracket, only a very short time to enter battle. The gun fitted with Daniel's automatic navigation and targeting systems, based on the Denel Arachnida II Weapon Management System and Selex Fin 3110 of Italy's Inertial Navigation Unit, the amount of capacity of shells made from 60 to 38, C-130 transport aircraft available, with three crew.

The gun is equipped with 105 mm Series munitions, including shells fitted with interchangeable tail cone of the projectile or the bottom row of cells and modules charge the system. The maximum range on the gun in the probability of error is less than 0.3%, bias error of 0.5 miles. In the early 2011's during shooting demonstration, three shots that were fired from howitzers through the same hole in a wall at 1,000 m distance.

Out of an abundance of clarity - This is not the MGS replacement. This is a Light Self Propelled Howitzer that would perform the function of the M109 for the Stryker Brigades. It required a crew of three and had a remote turret with fixed ammunition and a uni-modular charge. It carried up to 60 ready rounds in the turret. The ammunition was modified to create a 105mm round with the lethality of the standard 155mm HE round of the day. This was achieved by packing the round with Tungsten balls.

The vehicle was loaded on to a C130, transported 1000 km to a firing range and engaged targets at 31 km.

....

The LAV III was C130 transportable - and then Iraq happened and cages and double-v hulls and new kit and new gear.
 
Further to

View attachment 93043View attachment 93044View attachment 93045



Out of an abundance of clarity - This is not the MGS replacement. This is a Light Self Propelled Howitzer that would perform the function of the M109 for the Stryker Brigades. It required a crew of three and had a remote turret with fixed ammunition and a uni-modular charge. It carried up to 60 ready rounds in the turret. The ammunition was modified to create a 105mm round with the lethality of the standard 155mm HE round of the day. This was achieved by packing the round with Tungsten balls.

The vehicle was loaded on to a C130, transported 1000 km to a firing range and engaged targets at 31 km.

....
I'm curious what was done to fly it. The picture shows what look like the LSPH trying to fit in a USAF C-130, but it physically won't fit - unless you let them crush the pallet bracket rails (which I doubt due to the whole airworthiness aspect).
The LAV III was C130 transportable - and then Iraq happened and cages and double-v hulls and new kit and new gear.
NO it isn't and never was based on the USAF's look at CAF LAV III.
The current C-130 cannot accommodate it due to width (the whole non removable side pallet bracket rails)
Nor due to height or weight.
You can deflate the tires to make height - but for weight you need a waiver as it is beyond the max allowance takeoff weight, or you need to strip it to there bones - and it isn't in a combat ready state upon arrival.

Edit I found a OS post on the LAV and the C-130

IMG_0226.jpeg

The width for the LAV III is 8' 10" before Pioneer Stores and Jerry Cans etc, while the C-130 can take 8' 6".

There is a reason why I think the LAV 2.0 series was the best of breed for that mission.
 
I'm curious what was done to fly it. The picture shows what look like the LSPH trying to fit in a USAF C-130, but it physically won't fit - unless you let them crush the pallet bracket rails (which I doubt due to the whole airworthiness aspect).

NO it isn't and never was based on the USAF's look at CAF LAV III.

The LAV III is not a Stryker. The LAV III is a Stryker Canadianized with a bunch of other bits.


The current C-130 cannot accommodate it due to width (the whole non removable side pallet bracket rails)
Nor due to height or weight.
You can deflate the tires to make height - but for weight you need a waiver as it is beyond the max allowance takeoff weight, or you need to strip it to there bones - and it isn't in a combat ready state upon arrival.

Again the LAV III is not the Stryker, and reducing the load to the Curb Weight is not the worst thing that ever happened. Unless you are planning on TALOing off into a gun fight.

Edit I found a OS post on the LAV and the C-130

View attachment 93046

The width for the LAV III is 8' 10" before Pioneer Stores and Jerry Cans etc, while the C-130 can take 8' 6".

There is a reason why I think the LAV 2.0 series was the best of breed for that mission.

Agreed. The LAV III, with its LAV-25 turret is too heavy and too high. No question.

But the Stryker ICV M1126 weighs in at 16.47 tonnes, and is 104" tall (2.64 m), 107" wide (2.72 m) and 6.95 m long.
The height can be reduced by folding the RWS and also by removing the air from the run flats.
Also the width of the vehicle is not the width of the wheels. The vehicle overhangs the wheels.

1746044444050.png

The Stryker family of vehicles, with the exception of the double V-hull, remains C-130 transportable today. The capability of being transported by C-130 enables the Stryker brigade to conduct early entry operations in support of a host nation or as a follow-on force to expand the lodgment of a forcible entry operation


Most readers are aware of the constant trade off when developing armored vehicles; the balancing act of mobile protective firepower is — and always will be — a source of contention and debate. It is important to note that the Stryker family was designed to be C-130 transportable and capable of landing on an assault landing strip.2 The Stryker was specifically designed with a myriad of add-on packages of armor to increase protection while maintaining C-130 assault strip capability.

The assault strip capability was placed on the Stryker since its inception for the purpose of being air movable anywhere in the world. A majority of landing strips in austere environments are only C-130 capable. The Stryker family of vehicles, with the exception of the double V-hull, remains C-130 transportable today. The capability of being transported by C-130 enables the Stryker brigade to conduct early entry operations in support of a host nation or as a follow-on force to expand the lodgment of a forcible entry operation. Not only does the U.S. Air Force (USAF) have more C-130s than C-17s and C-5s, our allies around the globe also own significant numbers of C-130 aircraft.

Even the MGS M1128 was air portable in the C130

The MGS was originally developed for the Canadian Army, which did not have a requirement for transporting the vehicle via C-130. The U.S. Army did have this requirement, and so a design change was required to lower the MGS's height so that the vehicle could fit inside the aircraft. The turret was lowered within the hull. This change caused problems of its own. The reduced distance between the muzzle brake and the hull caused blast overpressures to develop. A solution was found where the "pepper pot" could be covered by a sheet of metal.


The M1128 weighed in at 18,770 kg combat loaded. Maximum payload for the C130J is given as 44,000 lbs or 19,958 kg and the C130J30 is given as 46,700 lbs or 21,183 kg.

....

The key elements on the LAV III are its weight and its height and the height is entirely due to its turret.

The weight of the LAV III Up and the LAV 6, as well as the Double V hull variants and the Dragoon are a result of ignoring the original Stryker design constraints.

...

All that said I agree with you on the LAV II as being the optimal design solution. It is the 80% solution as far as I am concerned leaving a useful margin when loaded in the Herc.
 
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PS this shows what is possible if loading with Ferrets, Foxhounds and Panhards.
 
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