Canada's tanks

[PrairieFella]

There's no need for mid calibre guns. A 35mm kills a BMP just as good as a 60mm but a 60mm doesn't kill an MBT just as good as 120mm. By being all-singing, all-dancing, the vehicle isn't really great at anything. The ammo storage problem alone would be a big problem on anything but tank hulls, but at that point, just have a tank.

 

[Kirkhill]

DRACO OTO Melara 76mm multipurpose surface and C-RAM counter-rocket ar

DRACO OTO Melara 76mm multipurpose surface and C-RAM counter-rocket artillery mortar system. OTO Melara has d

armyrecognition.com

The total weight, depending on the required ballistic protection which is anyhow less important since the crew are in the hull, is 5.5 tons and allows the installation on 15 tons chassis with a total resulting weight, combat loaded, well within the 30 MCL and allowing, depending on the vehicle effective weight and shape, transportability on C-130. The combat loaded configuration of DRACO includes 12 (twelve) ready-to-fire rounds in a revolver feeding system around the rammer and an automatic magazine housing further 24 rounds stored in the turret.

If they can manage that with the 76mm round then they should be able to exceed it with a 57-60mm round.

 

[PrairieFella]

meanwhile at GD, trying to drum up that medium CAV force, Though I think many of these turrets and options we could throw on the M10 hull for a tracked medium force.

View attachment 93007

Edit: Scratch that, found the source. I was hoping there would be brochures for those turrets, not some puff piece haha.

 

[Kirkhill]

There's no need for mid calibre guns. A 35mm kills a BMP just as good as a 60mm but a 60mm doesn't kill an MBT just as good as 120mm. By being all-singing, all-dancing, the vehicle isn't really great at anything. The ammo storage problem alone would be a big problem on anything but tank hulls, but at that point, just have a tank.

Unless you can't fly a tank into the field.

 

[MilEME09]

Where is this image from?

GD posted it on facebook today

 

[PrairieFella]

Unless you can't fly a tank into the field.

You can fly a tank on a Globemaster, the exact same plane that'll fly whatever medium calibre armed IFV you can think of. Anyways, you can fly maybe 2 hulls with your mid calibre gun on a flight, you can fly a hell of a lot more ATGM teams with Javelin or Spike LR or whatever to achieve the same effect.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

DRACO OTO Melara 76mm multipurpose surface and C-RAM counter-rocket ar

DRACO OTO Melara 76mm multipurpose surface and C-RAM counter-rocket artillery mortar system. OTO Melara has d

armyrecognition.com

View attachment 93008



If they can manage that with the 76mm round then they should be able to exceed it with a 57-60mm round.

That is basically a naval gun, designed mainly for AD and lightly protected surface threats. You will notice they don't specifically talk about Anti-armour. Although it's more than likely capable of taking out BMP's and the like.

 

[Kirkhill]

You can fly a tank on a Globemaster, the exact same plane that'll fly whatever medium calibre armed IFV you can think of. Anyways, you can fly maybe 2 hulls with your mid calibre gun on a flight, you can fly a hell of a lot more ATGM teams with Javelin or Spike LR or whatever to achieve the same effect.

All five Globemasters.

 

[PrairieFella]

All five Globemasters.

Which is an issue separate from Canada's tanks.

 

[IKnowNothing]

You can fly a tank on a Globemaster, the exact same plane that'll fly whatever medium calibre armed IFV you can think of. Anyways, you can fly maybe 2 hulls with your mid calibre gun on a flight, you can fly a hell of a lot more ATGM teams with Javelin or Spike LR or whatever to achieve the same effect.

How many CVR(T) sized vehicles to the C17 flight?

 

[PrairieFella]

How many CVR(T) sized vehicles to the C17 flight?

A few I imagine but for what? To be killed by a DShK? A more realistic comparison when talking light tanks/armoured recce would be the ajax, I believe two or three can fit on a globemaster.

 

[IKnowNothing]

A few I imagine but for what? To be killed by a DShK? A more realistic comparison when talking light tanks/armoured recce would be the ajax, I believe two or three can fit on a globemaster.

A modernized and slightly bigger Wiesel -Highly mobile light weight weapons platform for light forces.

 

[KevinB]

A modernized and slightly bigger Wiesel -Highly mobile light weight weapons platform for light forces.

 

[FJAG]

Set your mind back on your days at Shilo and Suffield and ask what the horizon was then.

Actually not too far if you are in a hull down position in Shilo. There are no Suffields where we plan on being. There are numerous small villages with rolling hills and forests.

Bofors created a land version of the 57 that was adopted by the Swedes, Belgians and Russians.
NORINCO also has this

Just because something is technically feasible doesn't mean that its tactically practical.

I know that multi-purpose weapons are not fashionable on this board. Except when talking about the infantry, the mortar, the howitzer and the CG-84.

It's not a question of fashionable on this board. The issue is whether it is reasonably practical. ADATS proved that anti-tank/anti-air dual use is not. Yes you can make things able to do one or the other but it simply doesn't work to assign a dual task to a given gun or troop or battery. In a crisis folks will do just about anything and use just about anything but that doesn't create a sound doctrine.

Which is going to be more commonly engaged? Drones? Or Tanks? And as much as I am a big fan of missiles bullets are still cheaper. As a gunner of my ken keeps reminding me.

I'm a fan of Skyranger 30. IMHO, it, or something very like it, is an essential part of any air defence system. But I wouldn't deploy it anywhere as part of an anti-armor defence line. I'm also a fan of M-SHORAD with its 30mm cannon with M1211 proximity fuzed rounds. (I would very much like to see a cost/effectiveness comparison between this round and 30 mm AHEAD system rounds in the anti-UAV role.) My preference would be a LAV 6 with a Skyranger 30 turret with a Stinger or SADM pod(s) like shown last year in Berlin.

 

[Kirkhill]

CVRT - LWH-Mass = 5.3 x 2.1 x 2.1m - 8.1 Tonnes
CC130 cabin = 13.5 x 3.1 x 2.7 m - 22 tonnes (2x CVRT per CC130J-30)
CC177 cabin = 26.8 x 5.5 x 3.8 m - 77.5 tonnes (8x CVRT per C17)

I don't know but a couple of troops, half a squadron, of CVRTs, attached to an infantry battalion/brigade have proven themselves to be quite useful.

Other advantage of the CVRT - for the light force.



....

As to the 76 mm being a Naval Gun

The Rooikat (Afrikaans for "Caracal"; lit. 'Red cat') is a South African armoured reconnaissance vehicle equipped with a stabilised 76 mm (3.0 in) high velocity gun for organic anti-tank and fire support purposes. The Rooikat's main armament was built with the Oto Melara 76 naval gun as its basis, to which it is nearly identical in terms of technical performance and statistics. The Rooikat can also fire the same ammunition as the naval gun, albeit modified with new percussion primers in the shells.

Rooikat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The 76 mm (MV 900 m/s - 1600 m/s APFSDS) shares identity with the 17 pdr AT Gun and the Sherman Firefly, just like the 57mm shares identity with the 6 pdr AT Gun. Both have Anti-Aircraft histories.

As to the Ammunition types available:

Israeli APFSDS for Rooikat - 2-3 km
Italian DART/STRALES Anti-Cruise Missile - 8 km
Italian HE-PFF for OtoMelara SR76/62 - 16 km
Israeli HE for OtoMelara SR76/62 - 16 km
Italian SAPOMER for OtoMelara SR76/62 - 20 km (Semi-Armour Piercing OTO Munition Extended Range)
Italian Vulcano LR PGM - 40 km

....

I would think that the advantage of the Medium Calibre cannons would be in their ability to engage BMPs etc at extended ranges cheaply so as to strip the infantry away from the tanks before they dismount from their carriers. Otherwise you are expending 200 KUSD Javelins that you could be saving for tanks.

...

A Battery of SR76/62s on the back of Kerax MSVS-SMP seems to me to be a good GP solution for a Reserve Artillery Force.

 

[PrairieFella]

The Scorpion could stop a 7.62. A well placed DShK or Kord would shred that half squadron, what then? I'd rather my cav to have the ability to eat at least small arms rounds and more ideally, a 25-30mm (mostly because i dont want to larp being a tank in a glorified M113 if the shit starts lol).

 

[IKnowNothing]

The Scorpion could stop a 7.62. A well placed DShK or Kord would shred that half squadron, what then? I'd rather my cav to have the ability to eat at least small arms rounds and more ideally, a 25-30mm (mostly because i dont want to larp being a tank in a glorified M113 if the shit starts lol).

What won't stop a 7.62, or provide near the same amount of firepower as modernized CVR(T)/Wiesel type vehicle/ (manned or unmanned)?
A DAGOR with a .50 bolted onto the roll cage

 

[Kirkhill]

The Scorpion could stop a 7.62. A well placed DShK or Kord would shred that half squadron, what then? I'd rather my cav to have the ability to eat at least small arms rounds and more ideally, a 25-30mm (mostly because i dont want to larp being a tank in a glorified M113 if the shit starts lol).

I kind of like being able to stand out of range of whatever the other chap is throwing at me.



The Israelis were achieving 2-3 km kills against T62s with those 60mm guns and APFSDS, equivalent to what they were achieving with the RO L7 105 APDS. 80 rounds on board.

At very least you force the other guy to spend more time and effort bringing in his heavies while keeping his light forces suppressed.

 

[PrairieFella]

I kind of like being able to stand out of range of whatever the other chap is throwing at me.

View attachment 93016

The Israelis were achieving 2-3 km kills against T62s with those 60mm guns and APFSDS, equivalent to what they were achieving with the RO L7 105 APDS. 80 rounds on board.

At very least you force the other guy to spend more time and effort bringing in his heavies while keeping his light forces suppressed.

At which point just use a tank. What the Israelis were doing out of necessity a half century + ago is irrelevant. What we need are tanks and some sort of divisional cavalry vehicles. My two cents are K2 and Jaguar, if we want tracked cav, AJAX or CV9035. What role does an orphan fleet of 60mm armed AFVs actually bring that a conventional tank doesn't? If it's supporting light forces, why commit light forces where enemy armour is expected? If the armour surprises you on the ground, what does a single role 60mm dart launcher bring to the table that a Spike LR (AT and Anti- Structure) with a 4km range doesn't?

 

[Kirkhill]

At which point just use a tank. What the Israelis were doing out of necessity a half century + ago is irrelevant. What we need are tanks and some sort of divisional cavalry vehicles. My two cents are K2 and Jaguar, if we want tracked cav, AJAX or CV9035. What role does an orphan fleet of 60mm armed AFVs actually bring that a conventional tank doesn't? If it's supporting light forces, why commit light forces where enemy armour is expected? If the armour surprises you on the ground, what does a single role 60mm dart launcher bring to the table that a Spike LR (AT and Anti- Structure) with a 4km range doesn't?

I am really impressed by your faith in the tank, both in its capabilities and its availability.

Cheers.

As to the Dart launcher? The Darts are cheaper and reload faster.