Canada's tanks

[ueo]

There is a time and place for every type of refuelling activity and they have their strengths and weaknesses.

Jerry cans in a cache or even dropped off at individual tanks at a hide/leaguer (or really anywhere behind the tanks) allow for both the tankers and the support team to move independent of each other and do other activities. Looking at it compared to hose refueling one can be mistaken in thinking that the extra time taken is wasted. However, in reality while one or two of the crew are feeding fuel, the others are doing maint, rebombing, getting orders, cleaning weapons or the myriad of other tasks that need to get done. Plus, if a hide/cache is compromised we lose a bunch of jerry cans not valuable tanker(s)

A rolling replen where the tank sqn or even mech folks drives through a line where they get refuelled and re-bombed takes more planning and is a deliberate activity that is/can be limited by the number of tankers in play. Generally there are 2 hoses per tanker so two tanks at time getting fuel per tanker times the number in a sqn. It has the downside of being a very juicy target as @SeaKingTacco pointed out and needs to be properly planned out

A refuelling truck (along with all the other support vehs) can also visit a veh hide or leaguer and roll from vehicle to veh.

All are very viable options that are driven by the tactical situation on the ground as well as the overall unit/Bde sustainment plan in dictating which options are undertaken

Ever tried this with vehicles back in a tree line and camoed? Doesnt work in any time space continuium!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not available in the bush where I worked either, nor the ranges I worked or over seas where I worked. But I sure as hell hated fueling with jerry cans anything more then one or two.

Thanks for making fun of my name. Cheers.

Yes out of sight of the enemy hopefully.

Again hopefully out of sight and range of the enemy.

Yes

Yes

Yes

LOL, Not just a civie truck driver, But ok.

lol Where I worked outside the military we had fuel trucks that worked, and a good steady supply of them that worked. Unlike the Canadian Forces who have a lack of equipment, so they use jerry cans Filling upwards of 1000liters of fuel. Except our guys more then likely only burn a fraction of that because well they don't drive very far often.

Yup sure.

Your telling me 24 plus jerry cans go on the back deck interesting.

OK. You win. I'll get hold of the Corps Chief and let him know we've been doing it wrong. Are you available to come and teach us how to do our jobs more efficiently? It'll mean going to Gagetown.

I'm done pissing up the wall. I'm old and the stream isn't what it used to be.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

As a Tank Troop Leader in the 90s we used jerry cans for running replens with a top-up from fuel bowsers when able/appropriate. Jerry cans were certainly a flexible way to refuel.

As a Tank Squadron Battle Captain in 2002 we used jerry cans for an exercise in September, but by November we were using FARs (wheeled 10KL(?) fuel tankers) in our running replens. When conducting Cbt Tm and BG exercises circa 2009 to 2013 we used FARs for the tanks.

The US Army has been using refueling trucks (tankers) for tactical tank refueling for decades. The Company First Sergeant has a small Combat Train with tracked ambulance and recovery assets, but fuel is delivered by refueling tankers that come forward with the LOGPAC. So we were somewhat of an outlier in the 90s. My US Army colleagues on a Company Command course with me circa 1998 found my description of jerry can refueling quite bemusing.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

As a Tank Troop Leader in the 90s we used jerry cans for running replens with a top-up from fuel bowsers when able/appropriate. Jerry cans were certainly a flexible way to refuel.

As a Tank Squadron Battle Captain in 2002 we used jerry cans for an exercise in September, but by November we were using FARs (wheeled 10KL(?) fuel tankers) in our running replens. When conducting Cbt Tm and BG exercises circa 2009 to 2013 we used FARs for the tanks.

The US Army has been using refueling trucks (tankers) for tactical tank refueling for decades. The Company First Sergeant has a small Combat Train with tracked ambulance and recovery assets, but fuel is delivered by refueling tankers that come forward with the LOGPAC. So we were somewhat of an outlier in the 90s. My US Army colleagues on a Company Command course with me circa 1998 found my description of jerry can refueling quite bemusing.

I am not trying to say jerry can refuelling should be the “only way”. It should be a tool in the toolbox…

 

[childs56]

I am not trying to say jerry can refuelling should be the “only way”. It should be a tool in the toolbox…

When it's your only tool in the box, it's time for a new box

 

[SeaKingTacco]

When it's your only tool in the box, it's time for a new box

Who, on here, suggested that it should be?

You are a one tracked mind of your own awesomeness.

You might want consider that a few of us here have refuelled armoured vehicles, in a tactical setting, once or twice, and might actually have a handle on the problem set?

But, I am sure you will regale us again with your Flying J/Oil Field anecdotes. Which is not to say that there are not things to learn from industry, but there two different imperatives at work.

 

[childs56]

OK. You win. I'll get hold of the Corps Chief and let him know we've been doing it wrong. Are you available to come and teach us how to do our jobs more efficiently? It'll mean going to Gagetown.

I'm done pissing up the wall. I'm old and the stream isn't what it used to be.

Gagetown sucks except a one or two week window. But for a ride in a tank and maybe shoot a round I could be enticed......oh can you get pizza delivered to the field?
But you can drop him my user name I can send him some brochures of companies who make refueling trucks/ tracked vehicles/ equipment for this specific kind of task.
Except you would single handedly be putting the jerry can manufacturer out of work due to the lack of replacement cans from loosing them in the bushes.
I never recommend passing up a wall, even agaisnt a wall splash back sucks.

 

[childs56]

Who, on here, suggested that it should be?

You are a one tracked mind of your own awesomeness.

You might want consider that a few of us here have refuelled armoured vehicles, in a tactical setting, once or twice, and might actually have a handle on the problem set?

But, I am sure you will regale us again with your Flying J/Oil Field anecdotes.

I try not to use Flying J when filling up they get most of their Fuel from Non Canadian Sources.

Which is not to say that there are not things to learn from industry, but there two different imperatives at work.

Working in the US and not allowed to use jerry cans having to either go without fuel (not a viable option) use our non existent fuel bowser or drive to the fuel racks to top up.(that was ARMY STUFF)
Maybe you can share a antidote where the SSM made ya fuel up with jerry cans because it was the best way ever, and the only way because the bowser was broken, only had one for the Brigade,( he was busy fueling jerry cans for the other guys). A guy or two has real life experience suffering the the suck more then everyone else in a tactical setting more so then you.

I am not saying drive the bowser up to the Hide, you know where your hiding, or drive the fuel bowser up to where your shooting bad guys. But your running replenishment, admin replenishment can be done more efficiently if we had the PROPER equipment. The only way is the way we tell you because we don't actually have the equipment to make it better.

 

[OldSolduer]

 

[Spencer100]

I say put everything in TEUs or FEUs containers. I mean everything. The whole army and and the RCN and RCAF logistics too. They already make fuel tank containers.

Put CPs, kitchens, Laundries, accommodations, workshops and gensets. Then put some of the weapons systems too. Everything not a fighting vehicle.

The entire world of logistics is set up to move shipping containers. In Canada you move by using civilian transportation. Then move overseas by many different ways.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I’ve been noticing at construction sites what look to be 500 litre steel boxes for fuel. They look to be designed to be moved by forklift and are maybe even stackable. That might be something that could be ported over to a military context.

 

[MJP]

I say put everything in TEUs or FEUs containers. I mean everything. The whole army and and the RCN and RCAF logistics too. They already make fuel tank containers.

Put CPs, kitchens, Laundries, accommodations, workshops and gensets. Then put some of the weapons systems too. Everything not a fighting vehicle.

The entire world of logistics is set up to move shipping containers. In Canada you move by using civilian transportation. Then move overseas by many different w

That is very much the direction we are taking for many things, some things have been in TEU form for years. It does create an issue when you need to move lots all at once as your TEUs are in far greater number than your prime movers. It just means good planning when you do want to move things

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

In 2008/09 we realized that the Leo 2A6Ms in Kandahar needed some love. So arrangements were made to replace them with a comparably protected variant and bring the A6Ms back to Germany for overhaul. While some work can (and was) be done on Leopard 2s in Canada, there is a particular piece of equipment required for the up-armouring that brings a tank to the M standard. I am not a machinist, but picture a piece of equipment that could pick up a hull and spin it around at its leisure. That piece of equipment is in Germany, and my understanding back then was that it was not a good business model to make one here. So 20 of the A4s that we bought that were still in the Netherlands went through the upgrade and went to theatre as A4Ms with the same protection as an A6M.

The fleet here is going through a turret repair and overhaul (R&O) and there will be a new maintenance facility as well. This was all in motion before the recent hullabaloo.

Buying and upgrading tanks is a funny business. We bought the C2s in the late 90s as a thermal sight program. It was cheaper to buy a Leopard 1A5 and swap out the turrets with our own than it was to buy the sight separately and have it installed on our C1s (although shipping was likely pricey). We also got some hulls in better shape.

I feel that stories of see-through hulls are exaggerated. There were certainly tanks with hull thickness problems, and part of the C2 program was swapping those out. The only truly cracked hull that I saw was caused by a bone-fide collision between two panzers. I am not a physicist, buts lots energy transfer in that moment. One of the two panzers was written off - no sense trying to weld that back together.

Anyhoo.

 

[quadrapiper]

It varies depending on whether the vehicle accompanies tracked fighting vehicle or runs back and forth between replenishment points. For example in a tracked self propelled artillery battery, the ammunition vehicle limber vehicles and the recovery vehicle are tracked (as are command posts, recce vehicles, troop sergeant majors, forward observers and the FSCC) while additional ammunition vehicles which move between the battery and ammunition points, and pretty much all other support vehicles are wheeled.

I can't speak for todays armoured squadron but in my ancient past, the A1 echelon which accompanied the tank squadron had tracked vehicles for: the squadron sergeant major who replenished food, water and other miscellaneous stuff, the POL vehicle (carrying jerry cans), the Ammo vehicle, the ambulance, the ARV and the MRT. @Fishbone Jones would know much better than I.

Essentially the A1 echelon supplies the tanks, the A2 Echelon, where the SQMS is, supplies the A1 Ech, the Regt A2 Ech supplies the Squadron A2 Ech and the Svc bn supplies the Regt A2 Ech. All of this gets done at night so it becomes a bit obvious why fuel tankers from the Svc Bn refueling the tanks is not a regular thing although in some circumstances, where the resupply is more administrative than tactical, it could happen.

Unfortunately, our purchase of tracked logistics vehicles is long gone. Most everything these days is wheeled primarily for budget reasons. The ACSV purchase has finally moved forward to putting a number of modern close support vehicles under armour with the basic LAV chassis.

Thank you!

 

[Kirkhill]

I’ve been noticing at construction sites what look to be 500 litre steel boxes for fuel. They look to be designed to be moved by forklift and are maybe even stackable. That might be something that could be ported over to a military context.

Add a cylinder of Nitrogen and you will never need to pump fuel again.

This is what we use for transporting sterilized juices around the world.

Pump sterile product into the tank. Cover with an N2 blanket. Disconnect. Stack, load, ship. Hook up to filler. Add more N2 from a cylinder. Et voila!.

No pumps in the field.

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Our closed loop multi-trip, stainless steel aseptic container system offers the perfect solution and allows us to offer a variety of vessel options.

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You could probably do something with a bit of fiber glass and a bladder as well.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Add a cylinder of Nitrogen and you will never need to pump fuel again.

This is what we use for transporting sterilized juices around the world.

Pump sterile product into the tank. Cover with an N2 blanket. Disconnect. Stack, load, ship. Hook up to filler. Add more N2 from a cylinder. Et voila!.

No pumps in the field.

Aseptic Totes - Products | Black Forest

Our closed loop multi-trip, stainless steel aseptic container system offers the perfect solution and allows us to offer a variety of vessel options.

www.blackforestmktg.com

You could probably do something with a bit of fiber glass and a bladder as well.

Within the same train of thought

 

[Kirkhill]

Within the same train of thought
View attachment 76966

In service?

 

[Spencer100]

That is very much the direction we are taking for many things, some things have been in TEU form for years. It does create an issue when you need to move lots all at once as your TEUs are in far greater number than your prime movers. It just means good planning when you do want to move things

If it's really needed there are 100s of thousands of units in Canada alone that can move cans if we go the that route. Does everything have to be a bespoke military vehicle? Yes for real missions but moving stuff in Canada?

 

[Prairie canuck]

In service?

Built by Mack / Kerax. Not sure if it was included in the MSVS program.

 

[dapaterson]

If it's really need there are 100 of thousands of units in Canada alone that can move cans if we go the that route. They everything has to to be a bespoke military vehicle is the problem. Yes for real missions but moving stuff in Canada?

Train as you fight. That means we need sustainment for the CAF ready to go out the door - not "Oh shit, going out the door, maybe we should scramble for some support vehicles".