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Mack 8x8 / Kerax (Military vehicles) - Trucksplanet
Not short of the capability - as of five years ago, anyway.
Canada's tanks
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Not short of the capability - as of five years ago, anyway.
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ELECTRIC TANKS!!!!!!!
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We have some support vehicles - but when do we absolutely have to use Green Fleet vehicles? How close to the "front" will a PDI driver deliver?
Spencer100
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But I would bet you there is not enough of them if things got interesting.Mack 8x8 / Kerax (Military vehicles) - Trucksplanet
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Not short of the capability - as of five years ago, anyway.
I would propose we stand up a logistics fleet in the same way as RN civilian crewed ships and the USN has too. But make it the based on logistics. The Royal Canadian Logistics Reserve. You would get thousands of O/Os I bet to sign up. Given them a hoodie like the Rangers and say we will pay you when needed. Plus a tax credit to be on stand by.
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And Optionally Manned....
Frankly I prefer the Optionally Manned Hybrid myself.
OldSolduer
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One kilometre per 3 hour charge
MJP
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Moving TEUs in Canada is not an issue outside of tactical scenarios on exercise designed to force Log staff (and others) at all levels to do planning. We don't need more trucks for TEU lift in that regard. If I could buy anything for the CA on that front I would get more tank haulers as those are in limited supply.
In an operational environment generally we would use a variety of methods to get supplies to the Corp and Division support areas (DSA) including leveraging contracted transportation solutions. It is the Div to Bde support area (BSA) and the movement from the BSA to the units support echelons that needs tactical lift. From DSA to BSA as you can likely get away with some level of non tactical vehs support in certain conditions but anything that is not military gets a vote on if they are willing to drive those stretches and if they aren't then we need tactical vehicles to fill the void.
Also in the BSA is all those TEUs that are CPs, warehouses and workshops etc that if the BSA needs to move mean that it is a very deliberate effort to continue to support the fight and move the BSA. That is generally all by tactical vehs, although you can certainly leverage other non-military options and/or Div and Corps assets if they are avail and the situation permits.
Colin Parkinson
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In WWII, despite the massive logistical train, they needed to pay French kids to collect discarded jerricans and bring to a depot, as very quickly a Jerrican shortage appeared as they were treated by the frontline troops as disposable items, which they sort of are, but not at the rate of disposal that was happening.
Can you explain the difference between a Military Mac truck and a civilian Mack truck. Both spec'd for offroad use, I am actually curious what the difference is? If there would be enough similarity for the civi version to supplement the Military one in a time of need.
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In some instances, they are the same.
In others, the military variants are uparmoured, may have pintle mounts, military radios, blackout drive, and other additions for compatibility with NATO STANAGs.
In others, the military variants are uparmoured, may have pintle mounts, military radios, blackout drive, and other additions for compatibility with NATO STANAGs.
Spencer100
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Some have an armour package. The Mack Canada got is just a Mack label. It's a Kerak truck designed by Renault Trucks built in Russia (not the one we got) now the division is called Arquus. Shipped over to tbe Provost Car plant Quebec for final predelivery and labeled a Mack. The whole thing all Volvo AB companies. We like having long supply chains to Europe so we don't have to buy American.
MJP
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How does that solve the prime mover issue? Trailers need prime movers to move so I must be missing what you are laying down.
If you are trying to say that trailers would free trucks up because trucks have TEUs on them all the time, remember the key to this sort of modularity is that most of the TEUs are not on any truck at any given time less some platforms that should always be tied to their prime mover.
We do have some TEU trailers so a truck can take 2 TEUs at once but they are a low density asset and designed for the HLVW so uncertain how well they work with the MSVS SMP or if we are keeping them once we get the new heavy lift fleet
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I explained poorly.
The trailer needs a prime mover. But it is only needs a mover when it needs to move. If the moves aren't frequent then can't the trailer be dropped off and the prime mover released for other local tasks?
And if the trailer needs to be moved, even if the prime has a load on its back, couldn't it, or any other available mover be hooked up to haul the trailer away?
Or am I still missing something?
Why wouldn't additional trailers be a relatively cheap way to increase the flexibility of the available fleet?
MSVS Trailer
The MSVS Trailer brings unique mission capabilities to logistic support operations. Capable of hauling 22,000 lbs., the trailer is extremely versatile and can be used to haul 20ft cargo containers, mobile workshops, or communications center. The military grade trailer has been in service with the…
www.linkmfg.com
Medium support vehicle system project - Canada.ca
Through the Medium Support Vehicle System (MSVS) Project, the Government of Canada is acquiring a new fleet of medium capacity logistics trucks for the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) to replace its current fleet of Medium Logistics Vehicle Wheeled (MLVW) trucks in service since the 1980s.
Prairie canuck
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Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure someone will 
) but TEUs are not to spend their time on a truck but rather only during transport then dropped off thereby freeing the truck to get another and another etc. If a TEU needs to be moved then the closest truck can pick it up. If that truck was loaded it can drop what it has to load the priority.
I see Kirkhill has beaten me to the draw, again
) but TEUs are not to spend their time on a truck but rather only during transport then dropped off thereby freeing the truck to get another and another etc. If a TEU needs to be moved then the closest truck can pick it up. If that truck was loaded it can drop what it has to load the priority.I see Kirkhill has beaten me to the draw, again
Prairie canuck
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"The LHS, 47 percent of the SMP fleet (approx 705 trucks), is designed to load, transport, and offload 20-foot ISO containers up to the load carrying limit of 9,500 kg".
Canadian Army Today May, 2018
Canadian Army Today May, 2018
TangoTwoBravo
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I suppose its appropriate to have CSS discussions when talking about tanks. It might be useful to frame this discussion within our doctrine.
Sustainment has several important elements including supply (material management), maintenance, health services and personnel services. There are lines of support. 1st line is the support integral to units. 2nd line is support integral to formations (CMBGs, Divs etc). 3rd line is support at theatre level while 4th line is national. The problem of CSS changes as you move between the lines.
Effective CSS is all about foresight. In our modern daily lives we can bumble around and only worry about food when we get hungry or fuel when our car gets low. There is always a restaurant or gas station to fill our immediate demand. This does not hold true in the army on operations. If you didn't think of it 72 hrs before its not likely to happen. You can usually predict consumption of certain commodities (fuel, water, food) with a high level of confidence, but things like ammo, casualties and maintenance are a little less certain.
Since folks were talking about fuel and delivery systems I will focus on supply. We think in terms of Days of Supply (DOS). So a DOS of food would be enough IMPs or fresh rations to feed all the people in a unit for one day. A DOS of fuel would be what the unit would expend in a day. A DOS of ammo would be a guess of what they would fire in a day. A unit has three DOS of combat supplies with itself, spread across its echelons including the F Ech. This is called the Basic Load. The Maintenance Load held by the Svc Bn at second line is essentially one DOS. The Maint Load is what is being transferred every day between the "echelons", and of course one Maint Load is being consumed each day. Sustainment planners will adjust the DOS/Maint Load as appropriate since it can vary (for fuel and ammo anyway).
So the tanks in the F Ech (Fighting Echelon) consume one DOS of fuel while the crews consume one DOS of food and water. They might consume one DOS of ammo. Or more than one DOS of ammo! Or no ammo. They meet up with the Squadron A1 Echelon who are carrying one DOS of ammo, fuel, food and water. The Sqn A1 echelon is (mostly) in protected vehicles with cross country mobility. This is usually done at a Running Replen with one Troop at a time moving through the RR. Fuel, food and water will certainly be transferred to the tanks. If the sqn was in a fight then ammo will be moved as well. Otherwise the ammo guys will be on security. Once this is done the tanks are full up and now the A1 echelon is empty. The A1 echelon then meets up with the Sqn A2 echelon which is a near mirror image. They either cross-load or simply swap full vehicles for empty ones.
The Sqn A2 echelon then links up with the Regimental/Battle Group A2 echelon which is the unit Transport Troop/Platoon. The unit level echelon will generally be in HLVW style vehicles. After giving the sub-units their Maint Loads the now empty BG Tpt Pl/Tp will then link up with the 2nd Line (Svc Bn) to receive the next Maint Load. The Svc Bn folks (Tn Coy) will then go back to another 2nd line organization (usually at Div) to get the next Maint Load. The Svc Bn fuelers will likely go to a Commodity Point at Division at a specified time to fill up. Ditto for other classes of supply. This whole cycle likely took all night, and the Svc Bn truckers might be finished as dawn is creeping over the horizon. And the cycle continues. All of this is harder when you are advancing in terms of supply because the distances are increasing, but at least you can recover broken vehicles. Unlike when you are withdrawing.
The Tank Sqn A2 echelon could be seen as an unnecessary step, but it gives the Sqn the ability to split in half and still have an echelon for each element. It also helps when you attach a tank sqn to an infantry battlegroup to have that extra carrying capacity. So we have a "middle man" that gives us some redundancy and security against surprises. Mech Infantry Companies will have a Coy A1 Ech but I have not seen them employ and Coy A2 Ech, just the unit A2 Ech.
Up forward you conduct these operations discretely and usually be transferring commodities from one vehicle to the next at a temporary site that offers concealment. At levels further back you might see more fixed commodity points with things like pipelines, 18 wheelers and railways being used to move the large quantities needed at those levels (like a Corps' worth of Maint Loads). A system that might be great to get things to the Corps Support Area could be non-viable up front at CMBG or even Div. A beer stein is a great way to deliver beer to your mouth. A tray of beer steins is a great way to deliver beer to a table. A truck full of kegs is a great way to deliver beer to a bar. But a beer stein would not work to deliver beer from the brewery to the bar and a beer truck full of kegs is not a great way to deliver beer to an individual at a table.
The US Army does sustainment a little differently than us at the unit level (LOGPACs coming forward), but we generally follow the same principles. My read of the 1991 Gulf War was that the system worked well to get fuel and ammo into theatre and as far forward as pipelines and columns of 18 wheeler style trucks could go. The problem was moving fuel and arty ammo forward to the divs, bdes and units. 80km of cross country/bad roads can be a huge distance. There was no shortage at theatre level, but units up front were running out of fuel and arty ammo. Tank ammo, on the other hand, was not as big a concern as the tanks fired less than planners had expected. They generally hit and killed what they shot at, and internal redistribution could account for oddities. Anyway.
TLDR - sustainment is hard.
Sustainment has several important elements including supply (material management), maintenance, health services and personnel services. There are lines of support. 1st line is the support integral to units. 2nd line is support integral to formations (CMBGs, Divs etc). 3rd line is support at theatre level while 4th line is national. The problem of CSS changes as you move between the lines.
Effective CSS is all about foresight. In our modern daily lives we can bumble around and only worry about food when we get hungry or fuel when our car gets low. There is always a restaurant or gas station to fill our immediate demand. This does not hold true in the army on operations. If you didn't think of it 72 hrs before its not likely to happen. You can usually predict consumption of certain commodities (fuel, water, food) with a high level of confidence, but things like ammo, casualties and maintenance are a little less certain.
Since folks were talking about fuel and delivery systems I will focus on supply. We think in terms of Days of Supply (DOS). So a DOS of food would be enough IMPs or fresh rations to feed all the people in a unit for one day. A DOS of fuel would be what the unit would expend in a day. A DOS of ammo would be a guess of what they would fire in a day. A unit has three DOS of combat supplies with itself, spread across its echelons including the F Ech. This is called the Basic Load. The Maintenance Load held by the Svc Bn at second line is essentially one DOS. The Maint Load is what is being transferred every day between the "echelons", and of course one Maint Load is being consumed each day. Sustainment planners will adjust the DOS/Maint Load as appropriate since it can vary (for fuel and ammo anyway).
So the tanks in the F Ech (Fighting Echelon) consume one DOS of fuel while the crews consume one DOS of food and water. They might consume one DOS of ammo. Or more than one DOS of ammo! Or no ammo. They meet up with the Squadron A1 Echelon who are carrying one DOS of ammo, fuel, food and water. The Sqn A1 echelon is (mostly) in protected vehicles with cross country mobility. This is usually done at a Running Replen with one Troop at a time moving through the RR. Fuel, food and water will certainly be transferred to the tanks. If the sqn was in a fight then ammo will be moved as well. Otherwise the ammo guys will be on security. Once this is done the tanks are full up and now the A1 echelon is empty. The A1 echelon then meets up with the Sqn A2 echelon which is a near mirror image. They either cross-load or simply swap full vehicles for empty ones.
The Sqn A2 echelon then links up with the Regimental/Battle Group A2 echelon which is the unit Transport Troop/Platoon. The unit level echelon will generally be in HLVW style vehicles. After giving the sub-units their Maint Loads the now empty BG Tpt Pl/Tp will then link up with the 2nd Line (Svc Bn) to receive the next Maint Load. The Svc Bn folks (Tn Coy) will then go back to another 2nd line organization (usually at Div) to get the next Maint Load. The Svc Bn fuelers will likely go to a Commodity Point at Division at a specified time to fill up. Ditto for other classes of supply. This whole cycle likely took all night, and the Svc Bn truckers might be finished as dawn is creeping over the horizon. And the cycle continues. All of this is harder when you are advancing in terms of supply because the distances are increasing, but at least you can recover broken vehicles. Unlike when you are withdrawing.
The Tank Sqn A2 echelon could be seen as an unnecessary step, but it gives the Sqn the ability to split in half and still have an echelon for each element. It also helps when you attach a tank sqn to an infantry battlegroup to have that extra carrying capacity. So we have a "middle man" that gives us some redundancy and security against surprises. Mech Infantry Companies will have a Coy A1 Ech but I have not seen them employ and Coy A2 Ech, just the unit A2 Ech.
Up forward you conduct these operations discretely and usually be transferring commodities from one vehicle to the next at a temporary site that offers concealment. At levels further back you might see more fixed commodity points with things like pipelines, 18 wheelers and railways being used to move the large quantities needed at those levels (like a Corps' worth of Maint Loads). A system that might be great to get things to the Corps Support Area could be non-viable up front at CMBG or even Div. A beer stein is a great way to deliver beer to your mouth. A tray of beer steins is a great way to deliver beer to a table. A truck full of kegs is a great way to deliver beer to a bar. But a beer stein would not work to deliver beer from the brewery to the bar and a beer truck full of kegs is not a great way to deliver beer to an individual at a table.
The US Army does sustainment a little differently than us at the unit level (LOGPACs coming forward), but we generally follow the same principles. My read of the 1991 Gulf War was that the system worked well to get fuel and ammo into theatre and as far forward as pipelines and columns of 18 wheeler style trucks could go. The problem was moving fuel and arty ammo forward to the divs, bdes and units. 80km of cross country/bad roads can be a huge distance. There was no shortage at theatre level, but units up front were running out of fuel and arty ammo. Tank ammo, on the other hand, was not as big a concern as the tanks fired less than planners had expected. They generally hit and killed what they shot at, and internal redistribution could account for oddities. Anyway.
TLDR - sustainment is hard.
GK .Dundas
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Speak for yourself.
Jokes aside that was a very good read.
FJAG
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An excellent post
The line above got me thinking a little. The US structure differs from ours. For example in an ABCT artillery battalion there is virtually no echelon at the battery (except extra ammo vehicles) and very little at the battalion level. CSS comes from the designated Forward Support Company of the Brigade Support Battalion. I can see how it can work but have a harder time when I look at the structure for a Combined Arms Battalion.
Like the artillery, Armor and Rifle companies have virtually no tail and the battalion's is quite light as well. Again it's the BSB's designated Forward Support company that holds the CSS. My reading of ATP 4-90 (The BSB) indicates that an FSC can (but doesn't have to) break its distribution platoon into squads to support the line companies but that strikes me as an inadequate structure as there are but three squads which are insufficient for building both company A1/A2 and battalion A2 echelons.
I think that the BSB structure in general, in putting all of the CSS personnel and equipment in the brigade, under one battalion commander ought to be highly efficient and allow for maximum flexibility while on the other hand weakening the bond between a unit and its organic CSS. Habitual attachments can solve some of that.
From your experience with the US, Does the overall BSB structure make it actually more efficient in general than our HQ/admin/service support companies and Bde Svc Bn? And does the US FSC function as robustly as our own HQ/admin/svc sp companies at the unit level?
TangoTwoBravo
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This actually illustrates that we need to understand the sustainment problem when coming up with a solution! We have our SOPs based on "normal", but we should conduct an estimate.
Your table that really wants to party does show the Demand part of the 4Ds: Demand, Distance, Duration and Destination that drive the sustainment estimate (Canada also has an R for Rate(?)). So while a tray with four individual glasses of different craft ciders will be the best answer for one table of customers, the demand of the table of tank drivers might be best served by four pitchers of Keiths. The table of tank drivers might want a keg based on their demand and rate of consumption, but their destination (their table in the middle of the bar) does not really make sense for a pitcher. A keg, though, might be the best sustainment answer for the 4DR for their troop party in their Tp WOs backyard.
Phew. I really twisted that analogy around!
In real army terms, sometimes big, clunky 2nd line assets from Div might come forward to do direct delivery to the F Ech based on the 4D estimate. Defensive stores are usually done this way (its a one-time high demand for bulky items with limited destinations). This might be done for fuel after a long road move (high demand) if the destination makes sense (maybe a secure area with good hard stands) and it will be for a short time (duration). Ammo can also be done this way in certain circumstances (arty etc).
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