Canada's tanks

[GR66]

To my mind with three Armoured Regiments we could model the CA on the US Army's Light Division (2030) structure plus lead a multi-national Brigade in Latvia.

One Tank Regiment pre-positioned in Latvia (with one deployed and two flyover squadrons) for the MN Brigade. One Tank Regiment in Canada to act as the equivalent of the Mobile Protected Firepower Battalion (and provide the training vehicles for the MN Brigade's flyover elements) and one Armoured Recce Regiment to act as the equivalent of the Division Cavalry Squadron.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not MBT but related to two of our Armoured Regiments.

First 5 of 66 LAV 6 Recce variants to replace the 141 Coyote’s are being delivered for testing.

IOC in fall of 24 with FOC planned for summer of 25.

Apparently the delay to date was issues with driving cross country with the mast fully raised.

Further delays to Canadian LAV recce vehicle as first units delivered

I can't imagine that is a good thing to do, perhaps rotated vertical, but not fully extended?

 

[Fabius]

I can't imagine that is a good thing to do, perhaps rotated vertical, but not fully extended?

I can’t see that as something I would want to do either but hey maybe someone thinks it would be good.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not a tank, but saw this on FB https://www.armyrecognition.com/def...760yUZR_vU_7_iCncuqnpJV3QpMVU#google_vignette

Wiki is coy on armour just greater than level 1 STANNG whereas the domestically made Roshel Senator is Level III and Roshel announced they are doing an improved version based on lessons learned in Ukraine. Not seeing what this has over that?

 

[KevinB]

Not a tank, but saw this on FB Canadian army to possibly select Thales Australia's Hawkei PMV as Light Utility Vehicle | Defense News August 2023 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2023 | Archive News year

Wiki is coy on armour just greater than level 1 STANNG whereas the domestically made Roshel Senator is Level III and Roshel announced they are doing an improved version based on lessons learned in Ukraine. Not seeing what this has over that?

One is a JLTV type the other is a civilian pattern truck with add on armor…

The Senator is very similar to the Lenco Bearcat. You just cannot make a good armored vehicle using a commercial base platform.
It’s more of a Bank Truck or SWAT vehicle.

Without getting into classified blast testing aspects, I’ll make one point, to make a good armored vehicle you need to start with the armored body and work the power plant and chassis around that. Not start with a power plant and chassis and basically just bolt armor on that.

If you look at the U.S. Army HEMTT it was a prime example of a bolt on armor setup that provided an Armored cab onto a truck frame.
The armor was an afterthought to the truck design and as a result while it was a decent ballistic package, the base vehicle suffered from a lack of protection outside the driver cab. Meaning a lot of minor damage resulted in vehicle losses as important parts of the drive train and power plant were not protected. The UpArmor Hummer has the same issues, as while it was a 2.5t rated truck, the ability to armor it was limited by the fact the chassis was never designed for that. The Hummer was also not a commercial design initially and has a number of features to aid in the ease of addition of armor protection.

 

[ueo]

M10 Booker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

US Army Unveils M10 Light Tank, Its First New Combat Vehicle in Two Decades

Top US Army leaders on Saturday afternoon during an Army birthday celebration at Fort Belvoir, Va., were set to unveil the official name for the vehicle...

www.defense-aerospace.com

Looks like a tank, drives like a tank...

 

[GR66]

Looks like a tank, drives like a tank...

Now you've done it...

 

[daftandbarmy]

One is a JLTV type the other is a civilian pattern truck with add on armor…

The Senator is very similar to the Lenco Bearcat. You just cannot make a good armored vehicle using a commercial base platform.
It’s more of a Bank Truck or SWAT vehicle.

Without getting into classified blast testing aspects, I’ll make one point, to make a good armored vehicle you need to start with the armored body and work the power plant and chassis around that. Not start with a power plant and chassis and basically just bolt armor on that.

If you look at the U.S. Army HEMTT it was a prime example of a bolt on armor setup that provided an Armored cab onto a truck frame.
The armor was an afterthought to the truck design and as a result while it was a decent ballistic package, the base vehicle suffered from a lack of protection outside the driver cab. Meaning a lot of minor damage resulted in vehicle losses as important parts of the drive train and power plant were not protected. The UpArmor Hummer has the same issues, as while it was a 2.5t rated truck, the ability to armor it was limited by the fact the chassis was never designed for that. The Hummer was also not a commercial design initially and has a number of features to aid in the ease of addition of armor protection.

Whereas these things went like shit off of a shovel

Alvis Saracen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Colin Parkinson]

One is a JLTV type the other is a civilian pattern truck with add on armor…

The Senator is very similar to the Lenco Bearcat. You just cannot make a good armored vehicle using a commercial base platform.
It’s more of a Bank Truck or SWAT vehicle.

Without getting into classified blast testing aspects, I’ll make one point, to make a good armored vehicle you need to start with the armored body and work the power plant and chassis around that. Not start with a power plant and chassis and basically just bolt armor on that.

If you look at the U.S. Army HEMTT it was a prime example of a bolt on armor setup that provided an Armored cab onto a truck frame.
The armor was an afterthought to the truck design and as a result while it was a decent ballistic package, the base vehicle suffered from a lack of protection outside the driver cab. Meaning a lot of minor damage resulted in vehicle losses as important parts of the drive train and power plant were not protected. The UpArmor Hummer has the same issues, as while it was a 2.5t rated truck, the ability to armor it was limited by the fact the chassis was never designed for that. The Hummer was also not a commercial design initially and has a number of features to aid in the ease of addition of armor protection.

That's classic conundrum of all AFV's, the larger the protected internal space, the heavier it will have to be or the thinner the armour. At 7 tonnes I don't see how it will be that much better than a 8 ton Senator. It might be a bit better, but then you also lose the ability to get a majority of the parts easily from commercial sources. So will that trade off be worth it? I understand Roshel is working on an improved version based on lessons learned in Ukraine, which may narrow the differences even more. With Canada's long standing inability to provide enough parts and maintainers, a bespoke vehicle with a limited amount of commercially available parts may mean a high number of vehicles out of service.

 

[WLSC]

That's classic conundrum of all AFV's, the larger the protected internal space, the heavier it will have to be or the thinner the armour. At 7 tonnes I don't see how it will be that much better than a 8 ton Senator. It might be a bit better, but then you also lose the ability to get a majority of the parts easily from commercial sources. So will that trade off be worth it? I understand Roshel is working on an improved version based on lessons learned in Ukraine, which may narrow the differences even more. With Canada's long standing inability to provide enough parts and maintainers, a bespoke vehicle with a limited amount of commercially available parts may mean a high number of vehicles out of service.

And frackly, it just mean that the mines/IED/bomb under the ground will be bigger. It will always be the chicken and the egg things. Build them stronger, someone will put a bigger explosive devices under. Heavier it gets, less manœuvrable it get off-road. If the Roshel is good enought, solid enought and can show real manoeuvrability off road, why not!

 

[Maxman1]

The Senator is very similar to the Lenco Bearcat. You just cannot make a good armored vehicle using a commercial base platform.
It’s more of a Bank Truck or SWAT vehicle.

Basically a modern version of the C15TA armoured truck version of the CMP, or the Otter and Humber Light Reconnaissance cars.

C15TA Armoured Truck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Otter Light Reconnaissance Car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Humber Light Reconnaissance Car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[KevinB]

That's classic conundrum of all AFV's, the larger the protected internal space, the heavier it will have to be or the thinner the armour. At 7 tonnes I don't see how it will be that much better than a 8 ton Senator. It might be a bit better, but then you also lose the ability to get a majority of the parts easily from commercial sources. So will that trade off be worth it? I understand Roshel is working on an improved version based on lessons learned in Ukraine, which may narrow the differences even more. With Canada's long standing inability to provide enough parts and maintainers, a bespoke vehicle with a limited amount of commercially available parts may mean a high number of vehicles out of service.

And frackly, it just mean that the mines/IED/bomb under the ground will be bigger. It will always be the chicken and the egg things. Build them stronger, someone will put a bigger explosive devices under. Heavier it gets, less manœuvrable it get off-road. If the Roshel is good enought, solid enought and can show real manoeuvrability off road, why not!

It’s a lot more than that.
A purpose built armored vehicle can do a lot better protection for less weight.
Combat areas are exactly know for having local Ford dealerships so the parts arguments fall absolutely flat for anything beyond domestic issues.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Don't underestimate Ford's worldwide web of part suppliers. They have factories everywhere and parts suppliers as well.

 

[KevinB]

Don't underestimate Ford's worldwide web of part suppliers. They have factories everywhere and parts suppliers as well.

Funny I must have missed those in Iraq or Afghanistan…

 

[WLSC]

It’s a lot more than that.
A purpose built armored vehicle can do a lot better protection for less weight.
Combat areas are exactly know for having local Ford dealerships so the parts arguments fall absolutely flat for anything beyond domestic issues.

Of course a purposly built vehicle will be better. 'm saying that if it can do the job, why not.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Of course a purposly built vehicle will be better. 'm saying that if it can do the job, why not.

That was the argument surrounding the Sherman, was it the best tank that the US could make? No it was not, but the supply situation, the logistics, the cargo capacity of the ships and the load limit of the cranes, down to the size of the bridging in theatre and then it was the best tank for the job. Making one element perfect, but causing issues down the road because of it can be a problem. Sometimes "good enough" is the right choice. My only concern with these is that we will get the absolute minimum we need for peacetime and have no depth in wartime.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That's classic conundrum of all AFV's, the larger the protected internal space, the heavier it will have to be or the thinner the armour.

I am probably wrong, of course, but I think that one of our issues, when designing our Inf/Cav armour, is the belief that you need to jam a big rucksack, sleeping bag and all the other camping style flotsam and jetsam into it instead of efficiently leveraging the echelon system, which results in unnecessarily huge vehicles.

Except for the TAPV, of course, which is just a POS

 

[Prairie canuck]

Just happened to be on the transcanada at Wabigoon yesterday and met up with 2 wide load low beds heading east each with a LEO as their cargo. No chance for a photo.

 

[Kirkhill]

Roshel – Smart Armored Vehicles

Roshel is one of the largest manufacturers of smart armored vehicles for commercial and government organizations in North America.

roshel.ca

I believe all the MRAPs started life as civvy trucks.

The grand-daddy of them all was the South African Hippo - a blast-proof box on top of a Bedford.

Hippo APC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An interim solution adopted to deal with the threat of land mines deployed by the South West African People's Organization (SWAPO) in northern Ovamboland, the Hippo was simply a blastproof hull fitted to a Bedford RL chassis.

The Bedford Hippo begat the Unimog Buffel which begat the Toyota Mamba which begat the Unimog Mamba which begat the Unimog Nyala which begat the GDLS RG-31 which begat the Force Protection zoo.

 

[KevinB]

Roshel – Smart Armored Vehicles

Roshel is one of the largest manufacturers of smart armored vehicles for commercial and government organizations in North America.

roshel.ca

I believe all the MRAPs started life as civvy trucks.

The grand-daddy of them all was the South African Hippo - a blast-proof box on top of a Bedford.

Hippo APC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bedford Hippo begat the Unimog Buffel which begat the Toyota Mamba which begat the Unimog Mamba which begat the Unimog Nyala which begat the GDLS RG-31 which begat the Force Protection zoo.

Eventually they because a purpose built armored vehicle.
I wonder why

I’ve traveled in a few MRAP’s. They are a COIN vehicle at best. They aren’t a fighting vehicle and no matter how the US Army tried to attempt making then into one, the role was a complete failure for the purpose they where often employed.
If they were thought of as an armored bus, for transport from Point A to Point B it wouldn’t have been a complete disaster. But they were used for patrol vehicles and trying to get out of one in a hurry to fight was next to impossible. They were also about as top heavy as a TAPV and an inordinate amount were rolled over (causing injuries and a few deaths due to the fact that if you dropped them into a water feature you where totally FUBAR).