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Canada's tanks

Any fight in Europe will 100% live and die on NATO holding the North Atlantic sea lanes.

Booking sea lift in peace time is an exercise in contracting. I wouldn't get too excited about it.
Unless I'm mistaken, war time and operational surges is the whole point of the US Merchant Marine and the Military Sealift command and even what's left of the National Defence Reserve Fleet and the Ready Reserve Force.

Canada may not be planning much for the future but the US hasn't been sleeping on this issue. There's a comparable air arm in the Civil Reserve Air Fleet which uses commercial airliners.

🍻
 
I’m not aware of the Canadian Military really exercising the movement of ground forces to Latvia for Ex Steadfast Defender. I might have missed something but each element is doing things but there is no flow of forces into Latvia really planned.
The Brigade won’t really be there, eFP is already there, GRTF won’t be going to my knowledge.

The army isn’t really interested or able to exercise such a thing.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, war time and operational surges is the whole point of the US Merchant Marine and the Military Sealift command and even what's left of the National Defence Reserve Fleet and the Ready Reserve Force.

Canada may not be planning much for the future but the US hasn't been sleeping on this issue. There's a comparable air arm in the Civil Reserve Air Fleet which uses commercial airliners.

🍻

So you're saying we will rely on our allies to pick up the tab ? How very Canadian. Not to mention our allies will be a tid bit busy with their own movements.

I'm not so sure they would view our small force as much of an added capability. Maybe if we used American Army kit that would be different.

I do know they will want our ASW ability though. That's I'm sure of.
 
So you're saying we will rely on our allies to pick up the tab ? How very Canadian. Not to mention our allies will be a tid bit busy with their own movements.

I'm not so sure they would view our small force as much of an added capability. Maybe if we used American Army kit that would be different.

I do know they will want our ASW ability though. That's I'm sure of.
You might want to reread my post and tell me where you found the "So you're saying ..." bit.

Last time that I looked, I'm the cynic on this forum who is constantly yapping about how Canada isn't doing enough and needs to get its head out of its ass. Let me look ... oh yeah. Here it is, in my little book "Unsustainable At Any Price" is where I suggest that a RORO capability might be something to steer the navy reserve to - maybe as part of a federal funding model with some of our ocean going ferry fleets. Pipe dreams of course.

Spoiler alert - don't get the book now - I'm rewriting a second edition to be out soon.

Anyways. Back to tanks.

:giggle:
 
You might want to reread my post and tell me where you found the "So you're saying ..." bit.

Last time that I looked, I'm the cynic on this forum who is constantly yapping about how Canada isn't doing enough and needs to get its head out of its ass. Let me look ... oh yeah. Here it is, in my little book "Unsustainable At Any Price" is where I suggest that a RORO capability might be something to steer the navy reserve to - maybe as part of a federal funding model with some of our ocean going ferry fleets. Pipe dreams of course.

Spoiler alert - don't get the book now - I'm rewriting a second edition to be out soon.

Anyways. Back to tanks.

:giggle:

Perhaps its just my simple mind, but what's your point then about US Merchant shipping capability and US Military Sealift Command ?

Back to tanks sure, but tanks are no good if you cant get them to, sustain them in and replace them in battle. We can fart around with fantasy paper napkin ideas all we like, and if thats the goal here have it. But the Logistics and Maintenance of them is just as much a part of this conversation as the make up squadrons and the types of tanks we have. In fact I would argue bigger than the actual theory and tactics.

This whole deviation began because someone was proud we rented some ships and moved some stuff. My point was thats easy peasy in peace time its just contracting, in war time not so much.
 
I understand our semi modern frigates are much more advanced than the WW2 corvettes which were much simpler to build. Having said that, if we mobilized, given how shipbuilding firms like Irving take years to float a new ship, I can't see how we would ever realize an escort/supply fleet like we once had. We built 140 corvettes from 1940-45. I can't see us building even a tenth of that in modern frigates in the same amount of time. As far as existing fleet for hauling, I don't think we have much of a capability there either. I would assume most owners are like Paul Martin Jr and CSL, who build and register their ships outside of Canada and their crews are international. I don't know how that would work. I know nothing about our ships, just random thoughts of unforseen problems by a neophyte.
 
Or maybe we focus on contribution to NATO being aiding in the securing of sea routes so the US can get (additional) material there in case of a conflict. Our regiment (battalion) tanks, or Bde (at the most) would be better served being 1 or 5 fully crewed ships or maritime patrol squadrons.

Keep a two brigades in Canada for sovops, and the showing the flag missions, and focus on units that secure our air and sea borders plus providing assets to NATO, something tanks can't do.

Get rid of what ever ground commitment to NATO we have. Promise something useful that we can provide.

If we were to provide a div plus all support sure NATO it, but we haven't in decades and will not for decades. Staff up the new ships and planes we have coming, gut the army.

Coming from a 29 year army guy.
 
I understand our semi modern frigates are much more advanced than the WW2 corvettes which were much simpler to build. Having said that, if we mobilized, given how shipbuilding firms like Irving take years to float a new ship, I can't see how we would ever realize an escort/supply fleet like we once had. We built 140 corvettes from 1940-45. I can't see us building even a tenth of that in modern frigates in the same amount of time. As far as existing fleet for hauling, I don't think we have much of a capability there either. I would assume most owners are like Paul Martin Jr and CSL, who build and register their ships outside of Canada and their crews are international. I don't know how that would work. I know nothing about our ships, just random thoughts of unforseen problems by a neophyte.

I think, like tanks and fighters ect, in a sustained non nuclear conflict you will see as equipment is destroyed countries will opt for simpler quicker to fabricate equipment.
 
Or maybe we focus on contribution to NATO being aiding in the securing of sea routes so the US can get (additional) material there in case of a conflict. Our regiment (battalion) tanks, or Bde (at the most) would be better served being 1 or 5 fully crewed ships or maritime patrol squadrons.

Keep a two brigades in Canada for sovops, and the showing the flag missions, and focus on units that secure our air and sea borders plus providing assets to NATO, something tanks can't do.

Get rid of what ever ground commitment to NATO we have. Promise something useful that we can provide.

If we were to provide a div plus all support sure NATO it, but we haven't in decades and will not for decades. Staff up the new ships and planes we have coming, gut the army.

Coming from a 29 year army guy.

I've said something similar a few times here lol it's always received well.

But I think this is the ticket.
 
Shouldnt take much to move 40 tanks after that it doesnt really matter because we would be out
 
My vote is to put 44 tanks (three 14-tank squadrons) into Latvia and do a three year posting for a regimental headquarters, a full squadron and enough maintainers.

Another regimental headquarters and three tank squadrons go to Edmonton together with all remaining tanks (and I mean all! - except the RCEME reference tank). This regiment has a flyover task to round out the regiment with two squadrons and the rest of the regimental headquarters. They do level 1 to 4 in Canada and conduct at least two level 5-7 exercises in Latvia annually for three to 4 weeks at a pop. You can fly the whole shebang over in one CC330-Huskey for those folks still concerned about logistics. There's probably enough space to add a flyover rifle company to make a really good Battle group.

Easy-peasy. We supply a full tank regiment to NATO for three years. Logistics are simplified. No messy MRP or six month rotations to worry about. No burn out. Every three years you do another posting cycle for volunteers who want it.

Hell - add in a couple of two week level 3 and 4 summer exercises and you can have the KOCR and the SALH (maybe even the SaskDs) get involved as well.

I don't see the problem here. We have the tanks. We have eager people. We have a viable mission. This isn't rocket science. Move a little funding into tank maintenance and Bob's your uncle. And don't start with every regiment needs a turn. Sometimes you just have to tell people to FO. Throw them a bone and make a flyover recce/cavalry task as well.

🍻
 
My vote is to put 44 tanks (three 14-tank squadrons) into Latvia and do a three year posting for a regimental headquarters, a full squadron and enough maintainers.

Another regimental headquarters and three tank squadrons go to Edmonton together with all remaining tanks (and I mean all! - except the RCEME reference tank). This regiment has a flyover task to round out the regiment with two squadrons and the rest of the regimental headquarters. They do level 1 to 4 in Canada and conduct at least two level 5-7 exercises in Latvia annually for three to 4 weeks at a pop. You can fly the whole shebang over in one CC330-Huskey for those folks still concerned about logistics. There's probably enough space to add a flyover rifle company to make a really good Battle group.

Easy-peasy. We supply a full tank regiment to NATO for three years. Logistics are simplified. No messy MRP or six month rotations to worry about. No burn out. Every three years you do another posting cycle for volunteers who want it.

Hell - add in a couple of two week level 3 and 4 summer exercises and you can have the KOCR and the SALH (maybe even the SaskDs) get involved as well.

I don't see the problem here. We have the tanks. We have eager people. We have a viable mission. This isn't rocket science. Move a little funding into tank maintenance and Bob's your uncle. And don't start with every regiment needs a turn. Sometimes you just have to tell people to FO. Throw them a bone and make a flyover recce/cavalry task as well.

🍻
Sort of a Reverse Shilo/BATUS. Now purchase a battery of Archers to support that tank Regiment (interim purchase of course)
 
Perhaps its just my simple mind, but what's your point then about US Merchant shipping capability and US Military Sealift Command ?

Back to tanks sure, but tanks are no good if you cant get them to, sustain them in and replace them in battle. We can fart around with fantasy paper napkin ideas all we like, and if thats the goal here have it. But the Logistics and Maintenance of them is just as much a part of this conversation as the make up squadrons and the types of tanks we have. In fact I would argue bigger than the actual theory and tactics.

This whole deviation began because someone was proud we rented some ships and moved some stuff. My point was thats easy peasy in peace time its just contracting, in war time not so much.
You were talking about how hard it would be to get tanks to theatre. I merely pointed out that we already did it. The tanks are there now. And we've done it before. I sailed on TRIDENT JUNCTURE. I am a little proud of our strat movers - they've helped me a couple of times with the movement of BGs. That nobody was trying to destroy us does not take away from the fact that we can move equipment across oceans.

What exactly is your point about how hard it would be in wartime? Nothing would be easy. So what? Our contribution to securing the sea lanes to Europe would absolutely be important. So would having something to contribute in Europe.

We have a NATO commitment to eFP Latvia. We are leading that eFP. This resonates with our allies. Its our mission, so we are executing it and have added tanks among more things that are inbound.

You seem to think that army folks don't think of the support requirements of tanks? Really? What are you basing this on?
 
I’m not aware of the Canadian Military really exercising the movement of ground forces to Latvia for Ex Steadfast Defender. I might have missed something but each element is doing things but there is no flow of forces into Latvia really planned.
The Brigade won’t really be there, eFP is already there, GRTF won’t be going to my knowledge.

The army isn’t really interested or able to exercise such a thing.
The flow of equipment for the expanded eFP is part of STDE as is the RIP of the eFP BG. There are other components as well. The Light Battalion piece won't be until later in the year - not under the STDE umbrella.
 
Sort of a Reverse Shilo/BATUS. Now purchase a battery of Archers to support that tank Regiment (interim purchase of course)

Make it two batteries. FJAG doesn't think there are enough rounds on board one gun. So buy him two and convert one M777 battery. You will still save manpower because you only need a driver and a gunner. The other 6 numbers in the gun dets can go to the MRTs and Ammo numbers and can be shared.

44 Leo 2s and 12 Archers might make a dent.
 
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