Canada's tanks

[FJAG]

It would make sense to put them near the armoured units. Unless we intend to de-consolidate the tanks, Edmonton or Wainwright make the most sense. Next would be Valcartier and Petawawa.

I've been mulling that over.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that I think we need a lot more tanks than we have and that, because we use very few of them operationally at any given time, that they should be manned in large measure by reservists. And yes, I know that reduces the readiness level but that becomes a risk that can be mitigated.

What's more, most of our reservists live in areas that are not natural armour training facilities. I think its time we acknowledged that fewer and fewer people want to live in Wainwright or Gagetown.

What's needed is: a training system that trains young reservists to a proper crewman standard at the DP1 level; an appropriate annual-at armouries-training cycle using simulators, sim-munitions and annual live-fire, collective training exercises; a sufficient infusion of regular force leadership across the board to handle the roles part-timers can't; an adequate predeployment training cycle.

I harken back to GATES in Shilo, where draftees with a 9 month service cycle were operating Leopards and Marders on live fire battle runs. And then there were all those 1950s armoured regiments with Shermans in places like Toronto and Montreal and Winnipeg. Nope they're not up to LdSH standards perhaps but as we keep saying - perfect is the enemy of good. Yes, we need a centre of excellence somewhere to develop, teach and perfect the high end skills but in order to build mass at a reasonable cost, we can't carry on with the status quo. We need to go where the people are.

 

[PrairieFella]

I've been mulling that over.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that I think we need a lot more tanks than we have and that, because we use very few of them operationally at any given time, that they should be manned in large measure by reservists. And yes, I know that reduces the readiness level but that becomes a risk that can be mitigated.

What's more, most of our reservists live in areas that are not natural armour training facilities. I think its time we acknowledged that fewer and fewer people want to live in Wainwright or Gagetown.

What's needed is: a training system that trains young reservists to a proper crewman standard at the DP1 level; an appropriate annual-at armouries-training cycle using simulators, sim-munitions and annual live-fire, collective training exercises; a sufficient infusion of regular force leadership across the board to handle the roles part-timers can't; an adequate predeployment training cycle.

I harken back to GATES in Shilo, where draftees with a 9 month service cycle were operating Leopards and Marders on live fire battle runs. And then there were all those 1950s armoured regiments with Shermans in places like Toronto and Montreal and Winnipeg. Nope they're not up to LdSH standards perhaps but as we keep saying - perfect is the enemy of good. Yes, we need a centre of excellence somewhere to develop, teach and perfect the high end skills but in order to build mass at a reasonable cost, we can't carry on with the status quo. We need to go where the people are.

I don't disagree. There should be tanks in every province with a training base for the local armoured regiment as far as I'm concerned. If our allies can do it, and we could do it years ago, there's no reason we can't now. Nevermind the fact plenty of reservists already have the quals. As an aside, it's a damn shame how low we've allowed the RCAC reserve to fall. I know, I know, every arm has experience the same thing to an extent but man, is it ever acute in the armoured world. You can say it hurts to read the unit history book about reserve Shermans and Centurions and compare that to now where we're told to be happy with our stark white, dump box Polaris Ranger 1000s haha.

 

[OldSolduer]

I don't disagree. There should be tanks in every province with a training base for the local armoured regiment as far as I'm concerned. If our allies can do it, and we could do it years ago, there's no reason we can't now. Nevermind the fact plenty of reservists already have the quals. As an aside, it's a damn shame how low we've allowed the RCAC reserve to fall. I know, I know, every arm has experience the same thing to an extent but man, is it ever acute in the armoured world. You can say it hurts to read the unit history book about reserve Shermans and Centurions and compare that to now where we're told to be happy with our stark white, dump box Polaris Ranger 1000s haha.

While I don't disagree I will say this:

Politicians these days don't think about tanks, AFVs, Artillery and ammunition. TO them that is an expense and money that can be spent on social programs that will get them elected and re elected.
UNTIL then we will see more of the "same old same old."

 

[CBH99]

While I don't disagree I will say this:

Politicians these days don't think about tanks, AFVs, Artillery and ammunition. TO them that is an expense and money that can be spent on social programs that will get them elected and re elected.
UNTIL then we will see more of the "same old same old."

I dont see that changing anytime soon in Canada.

Politicians see the DND/CAF budget as purely an expense, and one that doesn't automatically translate into an investment.

Politicians will always call tanks & AFV's "jeeps & stuff" because there is absolutely no pressure on them to learn the proper terminology. They'll continue to throw the CAF the minimum money they can to maintain a general purpose, combat capable force...and they'll vow to increase the budget 2 or 3 years from now if the public demands more

 

[Rifleman62]

And then there were all those 1950s armoured regiments with Shermans ...

In the early 60's in the RWpgRif, riding on the back of Sherman in Shilo with the FGH Tp Ldr who was also my home room teacher.

Still with Second World War webbing, including the bulky water bottle and helmets. Still had STENS and BRENS.

 

[PrairieFella]

In the early 60's in the RWpgRif, riding on the back of Sherman in Shilo with the FGH Tp Ldr who was also my home room teacher.

Still with Second World War webbing, including the bulky water bottle and helmets. Still had STENS and BRENS.

At least they had AFVs to use.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well Suffield is basically empty now. Start buying K2 tanks and simulators. Basically run Suffield as the Reserve Armour training unit.

 

[OldSolduer]

Well Suffield is basically empty now. Start buying K2 tanks and simulators. Basically run Suffield as the Reserve Armour training unit.

I'll see that and raise a bit of a problem:

Army Reserve Restructuring enters the chat...

 

[GK .Dundas]

When they moved 2 VP to Shilo . I thought it made an incredible amount of sense. They had artillery there and surely they would move a squadron of tanks there .
All in all it was perfectly logical. You would have for all intensive purposes a full time all arms battle group .
Capable and integrated to a higher degree the I suspect then most of the army.
At which point I discovered the Army in its infinite insanity had demolished all of buildings and ranges used by the the then West German Heer.
It gets worse there's a least one story going around that the Germans offered up all the armoured vehicles rather then ship them back to Europe. And naturally we absolutely jumped at the opportunity to say no .

 

[MilEME09]

Well Suffield is basically empty now. Start buying K2 tanks and simulators. Basically run Suffield as the Reserve Armour training unit.

doesn't matter the platform but suffield now is very under used without the Brits, we should recapitalize and invest in it. The Reserves are already using the brit shacks to run BMQs and such. Arty and armoured training would be easy with such a large training area. We just need kit and the investment. Heck rebuild the old airstrip and put a helicopter squadron there.

 

[KevinB]

Well Suffield is basically empty now. Start buying K2 tanks and simulators. Basically run Suffield as the Reserve Armour training unit.

Suffield may be to close to the border to house a reservist Armour unit...

 

[GK .Dundas]

Suffield may be to close to the border to house a reservist Armour unit...

In that case every base south of Alert is too close to the border..

 

[Kirkhill]

In that case every base south of Alert is too close to the border..

In which case there might be some cause for re-thinking these ...

While I don't disagree I will say this:

Politicians these days don't think about tanks, AFVs, Artillery and ammunition. TO them that is an expense and money that can be spent on social programs that will get them elected and re elected.
UNTIL then we will see more of the "same old same old."

I dont see that changing anytime soon in Canada.

Politicians see the DND/CAF budget as purely an expense, and one that doesn't automatically translate into an investment.

Politicians will always call tanks & AFV's "jeeps & stuff" because there is absolutely no pressure on them to learn the proper terminology. They'll continue to throw the CAF the minimum money they can to maintain a general purpose, combat capable force...and they'll vow to increase the budget 2 or 3 years from now if the public demands more

 

[Colin Parkinson]

When they moved 2 VP to Shilo . I thought it made an incredible amount of sense. They had artillery there and surely they would move a squadron of tanks there .
All in all it was perfectly logical. You would have for all intensive purposes a full time all arms battle group .
Capable and integrated to a higher degree the I suspect then most of the army.
At which point I discovered the Army in its infinite insanity had demolished all of buildings and ranges used by the the then West German Heer.
It gets worse there's a least one story going around that the Germans offered up all the armoured vehicles rather then ship them back to Europe. And naturally we absolutely jumped at the opportunity to say no .

To my knowledge they offered us everything at a great price, we would have to change the decals and translate the manuals.

 

[KevinB]

To my knowledge they offered us everything at a great price, we would have to change the decals and translate the manuals.

The problem is they were old Leo 1's and Marders - stuff they where junking.
I don't think any of it would have been of much use to Canada in 2000, as while the Canadian Leo's where in bad shape, the German ones where not much better, and the Marder was EOL as well.

The only great deal (IMHO) was the CFE cuts when the US was trying to offer Canada more than Brigades worth of Abrams and Bradleys - but again that was October of 1990

 

[FJAG]

The problem is they were old Leo 1's and Marders - stuff they where junking.
I don't think any of it would have been of much use to Canada in 2000, as while the Canadian Leo's where in bad shape, the German ones where not much better, and the Marder was EOL as well.

The only great deal (IMHO) was the CFE cuts when the US was trying to offer Canada more than Brigades worth of Abrams and Bradleys - but again that was October of 1990

The Germans routinely sent GATES's equipment back to Germany for rebuilds so it was generally in good condition - better than ours. The radio gear was quite different and would need replacing wholesale and we would have needed a whole new in-service support management system. 2000 was not a good time to bring in new armoured equipment (we had no equivalent of the Marder and there were differences between the C2 Leo and what the Germans were running) when the plot was to divest all of our own heavy mech in favour of an agile LAV III based fleet.