Canada's tanks

[KevinB]

Is an 11% probability of a hit with a $1000 munition such a bad ratio?

Hit doesn’t mean kill in this case.

And if it engages the enemy, has them runninng in circles, wasting ammunition, distracting them, aborting their action - harassing, suppressing and neutralizing them isn't that still contributing a useful effect to the battlespace?

It is a question of resources.
We covered this before on other threads.

If a Javelin has a Pk of 95+% and is $175k
Does a system that has a Pk under 5% that costs 15k a better deal?

What are the logistical challenges;
For 100 Javelin missiles or 25,000 FOV drones

Even if all it does is help 3 Ukrainians in a hole to hold a km of line and keep the otherside from advancing - holding them to a stalemate. That would seem to me to be enhancing economy of force efforts.

Opportunity cost is tough to know / maybe a 120mm Mortar would be more effective? Especially in all weather conditions.

...

How many SAA rounds are put down range to achieve one hit?
Mortar rounds?
Grad rounds?
Even dumb artillery rounds and bombs.

The difference is the FPV are guided.

....

To be clear, I will restate that I am not in favour of replacing conventional weapons with "drones". I do believe that "drones" will follow Moore's Law and get smaller, faster, cheaper and more effective and become a greater part of everyone's arsenal.

I also think that the new divisional structure is going to look a lot like the WW2 divisional sructure, particularly the inclusion of Light Anti-Aircraft Regiments (20mm and 40mm) and Anti-Tank Regiments (17 Pdr) with the Divisional Artillery

LAA becomes C-UAS (20 to 40 mm, SAMs, DE and EW)
AT becomes LRPF (Assault Breakers - LAMs, Brimstones and MFOM)

Brimstone is not LRPF.

I think you have gone tangentially sideways on the tank thread.

 

[Kirkhill]

Hit doesn’t mean kill in this case.

It is a question of resources.
We covered this before on other threads.

If a Javelin has a Pk of 95+% and is $175k
Does a system that has a Pk under 5% that costs 15k a better deal?

What are the logistical challenges;
For 100 Javelin missiles or 25,000 FOV drones


Opportunity cost is tough to know / maybe a 120mm Mortar would be more effective? Especially in all weather conditions.

The difference is the FPV are guided.


Brimstone is not LRPF.

I think you have gone tangentially sideways on the tank thread.

Tangentially sideways?

What kills a tank?

And I know the difference between a hit and a kill.

Does the person being hit?

 

[CBH99]

Tangentially sideways?

What kills a tank?

And I know the difference between a hit and a kill.

Does the person being hit?

Yeah, they do. Speaking from experience here...

If you aren't dead, than it wasn't a kill.




Not sure how else to say it lol not trying to sound chirp

 

[Kirkhill]

Yeah, they do. Speaking from experience here...

If you aren't dead, than it wasn't a kill.




Not sure how else to say it lol not trying to sound chirp

In the same spirit, the discovery is after the fact. I would suspect the anticipatory actions would be similar in both cases, regardless of the outcome.

 

[PrairieFella]

Yeah, they do. Speaking from experience here...

If you aren't dead, than it wasn't a kill.




Not sure how else to say it lol not trying to sound chirp

M Kill - Mobility Kill. Your vehicle cant move but can still fight.
F Kill - Fighting/Firepower Kill. Your vehicle's weapons and/or FCS are damaged to the point they're inoperable.
K Kill - Complete/Catastrophic Kill. Your vehicle is no longer operable. Usually determined by a degradation of hull integrity or the vehicle catching fire.

APC/IFV only

P Kill - Personnel Kill. Over 30% of dismounts are incapacitated.

 

[KevinB]

M Kill - Mobility Kill. Your vehicle cant move but can still fight.
F Kill - Fighting/Firepower Kill. Your vehicle's weapons and/or FCS are damaged to the point they're inoperable.
K Kill - Complete/Catastrophic Kill. Your vehicle is no longer operable. Usually determined by a degradation of hull integrity or the vehicle catching fire.

APC/IFV only

P Kill - Personnel Kill. Over 30% of dismounts are incapacitated.

FWIW I’m using PK for Probability of Kill, which in the lethality area means K Kill.

For anti-armor work, a M Kill is still a fail as unless your NLOS, the tank can still FUBAR you.

Glass half full, most ATGM, 84mm or larger DF weapon hits on a Russian tank result in a K Kill if you hit the turret or turret ring area.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The loader/auto-loader question might be answered by the main gun selection on our next tanks.

From what I understand the 130mm rounds are significantly larger and heavier than the current 120mm tank rounds (1.5m long and 30-38kg depending on type for the 130mm vs around 1m long and 21kg for the 120mm round).

The 130mm L/51 round is specifically designed for an autoloader due to the weight and space constraints. Manually loading a 130mm round would be significantly slower than a 120mm round, result in much greater loader fatigue and require a larger turret due to the greater length of the round.

The South Korean K2 Black Panther uses an autoloader for its 120mm gun but apparently there is a limited (very slow and awkward) ability to manually load the gun if the auto loader fails (either the commander or gunner has to leave their position and ROF is only 1-2 rounds per minute.

FWIW I’m using PK for Probability of Kill, which in the lethality area means K Kill.

For anti-armor work, a M Kill is still a fail as unless your NLOS, the tank can still FUBAR you.

Glass half full, most ATGM, 84mm or larger DF weapon hits on a Russian tank result in a K Kill if you hit the turret or turret ring area.

An M-Kill just gives you a stable gun platform