"Canadian Forces warns members affiliated with radical groups"

[Brad Sallows]

Good to see all that loyalty and support from the top downward.

 

[FSTO]

Good gravy guys what do you expect them to say? "Yes the chattering class and the media is full of shyte, these sailors did nothing really wrong. But to satisfy the mobs screams for blood we are putting them on C&P. What is C&P? Well media, why don't you do your frikken job for once and find out and report the truth for once instead of being a mouthpiece for the uninformed and stupid."

If the Admiral said that he would be an ex admiral pretty quick!

 

[PuckChaser]

The original statement should have been nothing more than  "We are investigating the matter. Any personnel matters are Protected material and we cannot discuss them". Followed by "Appropriate actions have been taken following relevant Canadian Armed Forces directives and orders. Any further details are Protected information and will not be released."

The CAF leadership demands loyalty up the chain but apparently in this case it was wholly appropriate for both the CDS and MARLANT Comd to throw subordinates under the bus publicly. Sorry if I don't think that's appropriate leadership or proportional punishment.

 

[trooper142]

The original statement should have been nothing more than  "We are investigating the matter. Any personnel matters are Protected material and we cannot discuss them". Followed by "Appropriate actions have been taken following relevant Canadian Armed Forces directives and orders. Any further details are Protected information and will not be released."

The CAF leadership demands loyalty up the chain but apparently in this case it was wholly appropriate for both the CDS and MARLANT Comd to throw subordinates under the bus publicly. Sorry if I don't think that's appropriate leadership or proportional punishment.

Not completely true!

The military police report can be ATIP and the media can see most of the investigation from there. Obviously it would be vetted prior to release, but they could have easily got the answers they were looking for without speaking to the Admiral. Given that they gave him a chance, anything he said is fair game.

The Admiral 's  rash reaction and discussion in the media after the event occured, and subsequent 'speaking to' the members hindered any possibility of charges. I am willing to bet the Admiral didn't caution these young men prior to the jacking they likely received, obviously I don't know for certain, but his change in tone from the beginning of the events until the end gives a good impression on the advice he likely received once he had a copy of the MP report.

One thing that stick out on my mind was the "they have rights" where were these rights as you were throwing them under the bus you were driving

*Disclaimer* im not endorsing or encouraging their behaviour; but the standard is for all service members, not just those on the bottom! In my opinion, he embarrassed the forces as much as they did with his rash comments and off the collar remarks without knowing the facts, and did his subordinates a disservice.

My  :2c:

 

[jollyjacktar]

Good gravy guys what do you expect them to say? "Yes the chattering class and the media is full of shyte, these sailors did nothing really wrong. But to satisfy the mobs screams for blood we are putting them on C&P. What is C&P? Well media, why don't you do your frikken job for once and find out and report the truth for once instead of being a mouthpiece for the uninformed and stupid."

If the Admiral said that he would be an ex admiral pretty quick!

I would hope to feel that I would have a fair shake should I run aground, not to already be prejudged in both the courts of public opinion and CoC.  This rush to judgement by all appearances only further degrades my confidence in the system and further erodes morale that has been taking belt fed with recent changes in the navy.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... On the Good Boys issue, I hope that the only issue that the legal folks weighed in on was whether or not disciplinary charges were appropriate (in which case the advice was correct as none were laid). I really hope there wasn't any input on what the Admiral said (especially the bit about "It means nothing. What was perceived by the public is what matters"). That statement (if accurately reported), IMHO, is contrary to the principles of procedural fairness/natural justice that underlie administrative law which is the legal field under which nondisciplinary actions against individuals are taken.

I meant input into the legal bits of the situation, not the comms - although if the Admiral had run that wording by the legal beagles, I'm guessing they would have likely had something to say.

 

[FSTO]

I would hope to feel that I would have a fair shake should I run aground, not to already be prejudged in both the courts of public opinion and CoC.  This rush to judgement by all appearances only further degrades my confidence in the system and further erodes morale that has been taking belt fed with recent changes in the navy.

I agree with you. But in this time of hyper awareness of white male privledge the knee jerk response pressure comes from far higher levels than COMD MARLANT. I'd love to see our leadership rake the liars and their enablers over the coals but I think he did a fairly good job to keep the inquisitors from publicly executing the four sailors.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'm feeling less and less privileged each passing day.  So I guess the PC Pitchfork/Torch people must be winning the war.

 

[mariomike]

Proud Boys Canada claim victory on Twitter,

"I love the sound of SJWs crying, sounds like victory"
https://twitter.com/ProudboysCanada/status/903739330417627136
"i called it. No time in cells, no $$ charge; just Counseling & Probation for a year. They're good to go in 12 months"

Looks like a couple of PBs have gotten into a bit of hot water in the US, ( innocent until proven guilty )

Criminal charges against Proud Boys

Kyle Chapman

In August 2017, Chapman was charged with possessing a lead-filled stick that he allegedly used to strike protesters at a rally in Berkeley, California on March 4. Chapman has two past felony convictions – a 1993 felony robbery conviction in Texas and a 2001 grand theft conviction in California. Due to his past criminal history and the violent nature of the Texas robbery, Chapman could receive a double sentence under California’s "Three Strikes" law and faces a maximum sentence of seven to eight years in prison if convicted. He has previously spent a total of ten years in prison for the 1993 and 2001 convictions.

Alex Ramos

Proud Boy Alex Ramos was charged in the beating of DeAndre Harris at the Unite the Right Rally in Charlottesville, Virginia in August of 2017. Harris, a 20-year-old African American man, was cornered and beaten in a parking garage by six men from the rally, allegedly including Ramos. Security cameras show six men circling Harris and severely beating him with sticks and possibly other objects as he lay on the concrete. Harris suffered significant injuries, including a broken wrist, a spinal injury, and a head injury that required 10 staples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys#Criminal_charges_against_Proud_Boys

 

[Journeyman]

If the Admiral said that he would be an ex admiral pretty quick!

Ahh...."know your troops and promote their well-being" versus "I won't make waves; please let me be CDS some day..."

I guess we have differing views on leadership.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Good gravy guys what do you expect them to say? "Yes the chattering class and the media is full of shyte, these sailors did nothing really wrong. But to satisfy the mobs screams for blood we are putting them on C&P. What is C&P? Well media, why don't you do your frikken job for once and find out and report the truth for once instead of being a mouthpiece for the uninformed and stupid."

If the Admiral said that he would be an ex admiral pretty quick!

And this was any better??  : 

"I have heard [the men's] side of a story," Newton said. "It means nothing. What was perceived by the public is what matters ….

1.  I'm glad I never had the...pleasure...of working for this guy

2.  I'm glad my DVA claim is already processed and approved.

 

[FSTO]

Ahh...."know your troops and promote their well-being" versus "I won't make waves; please let me be CDS some day..."

I guess we have differing views on leadership.

Please do not assume. I have paid a price career wise for speaking my mind and supporting the well being of my sailors.

I am just pointing out the real politik of the times. Its an ugly world out there and right now the howling masses have the pulpit and I have no idea how we can speak rationally to these people (media, SJW's, etc)

 

[Journeyman]

Ack.

I had come back online to add.....

I'm well aware that there's more to leadership than buzzwords and pithy aphorisms. There may even have been some clear direction from on high.  Nonetheless, the Admiral could have chosen his words more wisely; the same administrative actions could have been awarded, without him coming across as either:
a) a complete douche, and/or
b) a stereotype of how "naval leadership" has been portrayed over many years.

The result for the sailors/soldier would be the same, but pissing on any potential officer/enlisted schism could have been avoided.


The bottom line for me is that I certainly don't envy anyone relying on his support in VAC.   

 

[jollyjacktar]

:goodpost:

His comments have poisoned the well for me, that was not necessary or helpful.  The new boss sounding (more or less) like the old boss doesn't bode well for me either.

FSTO,  seeing as you don't know how they could talk rationally to the howling masses, how's about say as little as possible or keep stumm?  Just like an interrogation,  don't give them an opening.  But seeing as how they want to be twitter knobs like Trump, I suppose there's no mute button.

 

[Stoker]

Admiral Newton is a big social media guy and heavily involved in the aboriginal community here. When the original story broke it was responded to quickly as in the past the Navy has been accused of either reporting stuff late or not at all. In this case with video and the members identified within an hour as RCN, it had to be dealt with quickly.
In this PC world we now live in the RCN is not going to give them a pass because public everything these days is driven by public perception. At the end of the day the members were punished for their actions and was way better than getting the boot.  I really didn't envy the Admiral how he had to deal with this and only recently after another sailor insulted the aboriginal community.

 

[FSTO]

Maybe a case of damn if you do and damn if you don't. I wouldn't of wanted to be in his shoes for all of this and words and intent are tough things to join at times.

We as members of the military didn't like the way he came across because he didn't seem to support his sailors. Meanwhile the folks on the other side of the spectrum are likely furious that he didn't publicly draw and quarter them at the front gate to HMC Dockyard.

 

[George Wallace]

The bottom line for me is that I certainly don't envy anyone relying on his support in VAC.   

From what I have seen in comments so far, that is quite a disturbing thought.  Can this zebra change its' stripes?

 

[Navy_Pete]

For me the problem isn't that they are on C&P or anything else in the process, but more that all these statements have torpedoed the appearance of the sailors having been fairly treated by the processes in place.  Even if they were, these kind of public comments make it all appear like their number was up as soon as it happened, and further erode confidence that the CoC will have your back in any scenario, or that loyalty only is required up the chain.

 

[Stoker]

For me the problem isn't that they are on C&P or anything else in the process, but more that all these statements have torpedoed the appearance of the sailors having been fairly treated by the processes in place.  Even if they were, these kind of public comments make it all appear like their number was up as soon as it happened, and further erode confidence that the CoC will have your back in any scenario, or that loyalty only is required up the chain.

He was in an incredibility difficult situation, if he did or said nothing people would have accused the RCN of a coverup or not doing enough. Yes I think it was a forgone conclusion that they would be getting some sort of punishment. I think it says a lot that they weren't kicked out despite the masses calling for it. In any other element it would been the same result. The people saying that the Admiral won't be doing a great job in Vac because of this one incident in four years of Sterling service as the Commander of MARLANT are wrong.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

He was in an incredibility difficult situation, if he did or said nothing people would have accused the RCN of a coverup or not doing enough. Yes I think it was a forgone conclusion that they would be getting some sort of punishment. I think it says a lot that they weren't kicked out despite the masses calling for it. In any other element it would been the same result. The people saying that the Admiral won't be doing a great job in Vac because of this one incident in four years of Sterling service as the Commander of MARLANT are wrong.

Your loyalty is admirable and expected, but IMO there is zero...zero reasonable explanation for public statements such as this:

"I have heard [the men's] side of a story," Newton said. "It means nothing. What was perceived by the public is what matters ….

If that is the *best* he can do in a rock/hardplace situation, and you see that as sterling service...we're on opposite sides when it comes to a few definitions, I'm afraid.

The one thing on this whole issue that DOES speak louder to me than the Admirals words is the lack of charges, even a 129.  But, that same message will not resound with the public crying for the hanging tree.

I guess *guilty until proven innocent* doesn't apply to military members in the public eye.  Ironic, they would deny the same freedoms to military people that military members defend and protect.  :not-again: