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Canadian Military involvment in Iraq, and Canadian political support. - The Canadian Forces going to Iraq?

I'm not sure that I'm surprised at some of the comments here but I continue to be disappointed to hear the same old thing again and again by a community that should know better. To me the choice is clear: help our Allies free a people or stick it to our Allies to try to prove a point. How incredibly petty some of you latter. It makes me sad. I would have thought that the example our grandparents set for us in the liberation of Europe would have made a greater impression today's generation. Shame on some of you for breaking the faith


In Flanders Fields
by John McCrae (1872 - 1918)

In Flanders' fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place: and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below,

We are the dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders' fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe;
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be your to hold it high,
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders' fields
 
Hmmm, did I know somthing at the time....? Sounds like alot of option #5 here..... ::)
http://army.ca/forums/threads/25087.0.html
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Who cares what Iraqi's think of us?   Sorry to be blunt, but honestly - they will have worries of their own for the next long while.   Canada is no longer an honest broker, and certainly not in Iraq.   We need to start thinking about helping our allies more - and maybe, just maybe, we'll get some breaks on softwood lumber, cattle, etc.  

Yikes.  Well, actually, I care about what Iraqi's think of us, but that wasn't really my question. I was just looking for a military opinion on the events to get a better view of things.  It's definitely important to help our allies, but I don't think that things are so economically bleak here that we have to sell our souls in order to trade some lumber. Really, is that what you joined up for?

If you're not interested in outside views or questions I'm cool with that and I'll move along and form my opinions in other ways.
 
Thanks.  Seriously, it's good to hear.  I really do appreciate anyone who's willing to put themselves in harms way to protect the rest of us.  Military, cops, fire fighters, etc.  You're also a HUGE part of the reason Canadians get respected in most parts of the world.
 
THe problem is if you start to pick and choose your friends in the world you tend to make enemies quicker from those who you shun.  By not carring what the world thinks you tend to come off (much like the USA) as being arrogant and not a team player.

Would it be a bad thing for us to be in IRAQ no not under a UN or even a NATO deal but if we go in under the US we would be taking a step backwards.  We were not in with them intially and now it would be seen as us trying to save face.

 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
I  totally disagree with several others[hi, sigpig/ape ;)] but at least they bring some form of articulate arguement with them and not the kife you spout.

Hi Bruce!!!  :D  I hadn't checked out this thread before and look what I missed. An actual mention by name and what I will take for a compliment.

BTW I mentioned you by name in a post I did about 15 minutes before seeing this one.  ;)
 
Infanteer said:
Glorified Ape, I've read your reply and I could attempt a point-by-point rebuttal, but I'm not going to - all it will do is extend the exasperating tit-for-tat spiel that has been running on this forum for years now.   Rather, I'm going to offer an observation and a bit of a challenge.

As I read your post, I pick up a tone of argument through your use of terms like "sociopathic" and "sustaining hegemonic status" that seems to indicate that you believe that the US is making a desperate bid to shore up its status as Global Superpower.   As well, you constantly appeal to notions of "consensus" and "global governance" which, although sounding nice and fluffy, have never been a serious factor in the conduct of nations since the Peace of Westphalia (even the Concert of Europe was fraught with intrigue, interest, and revolution).   Hell, none of the Allies could even gather a consensus on how to defeat Fascism in WWII and what to do when that was done - I could see the an internet thread in 1945 debating Churchill's staunch realism vs. Roosevelt's hopeful idealism (which was manipulated by Stalin's totalitarian paranoia).

I will assert that Iraq must be viewed agianst the general backdrop of US involvement in the Middle East.   It, like the "War on Terror", must be viewed as a whole.   I do not believe Iraq is merely an independant effort by the United States to grab power and prop up its Hegemonic status; this status was assured when the Taman Guards chose to not crush the Muscovites marching in the streets and I contend that American strength, regardless of Iraq, will be unrivaled for at least the next few decades - the preponderance in all facets of strength (military, economic, cultural, digital) point to this.  

Ratherl, I believe America (along with its Allies) have gone into Iraq to decisively engaging themselves in the Middle East for the same reason they decisively engaged themselves in Europe following WWII - it was in their interest (and the interest of other liberal democracies) to curb the rise of ideological terrorism, only now Bolshevism has been replaced with xenophobic Fundamentalism which, since the withdrawl of the Soviets from the Middle East, is feeding off of people who live in squalor and destitution under tin-pot regimes.   Iraq, like Guadalcanal or North Africa, is merely one set of battles in a grand campaign to deal with a world-view that is fundamentally opposed to the very principles that we have thrived under.

To paraphrase Lord Palmerston, "States don't have friends, they have interests".   Canada should not occupy itself with seeking "friends" through its "reputation"; this will only serve to have our "Soft Power" crumble when others choose to serve their interest over "friendship" with us.   I believe it is in our interest to strategically commit ourselves to the Middle East - not through back room deals and political back-scratching as the French, Russians, and Chinese have been prone to do, but rather along with the Americans and British to effect decisive change in behaviours and attitudes.   Whether this means mere political support or a small troop commitment is not important, only that we recognize that we must exercise our influence at the center of Dar-al-Islam lest Western influence in the area takes a dramatic turn for the worse and we risk being held for ransom by politically hostile actors.

Here is my outlook on the American effort in Iraq that I have pasted from another forum.   Read it if you want.   Hopefully, it may provide a different approach to interpreting events in the Middle East.   If you still wish to argue rabid and sociopathic imperialism, then go for it - but the disjointed arguments for this approach (oil, Bush, racism, failing economy) don't seem to add up.

Nor do the arguments proposed for this war - especially in the absence of the mantra chanted by the administration in the lead up: WMD. Oops, none there. Funny how the whole "freedom/liberty" stuff didn't get a mention until the whole WMD thing started looking less and less likely. I think that's probably because it was the most ridiculous justification available but excuses were getting scarce. Anyway, I digress.

As for national interests and "no friends", I don't disagree - friends are countries with whom our interests converge. That doesn't mean we have to tag along on every misadventure our "friends" get into. We're not losing anything by not being in Iraq or helping the US - they'll trade with us as they always have and we'll both profit off of it. Canada's national interests are seeing international law and governance (yes, it exists, not just a lofty principle - the WTO, IMF, World Bank, UN, etc. do it) maintained, improved, and promoted - they enable us to make ourselves felt far beyond our basic, realpolitik capabilities. Tying on to a foreign policy blunder by an ally simply because we're economically interdependent doesn't serve that end and thus doesn't serve our interests. So we tag along with the US and what do we gain? A pat on the back and recognition from big brother (oh joy), some place to sink token groups of troops for the next few years, and maybe some preferential treatment for Canadian contractors? Meanwhile, we come out looking like a poorly dressed hooker without about as much dignity, depravity by association, and the status quo is maintained - we advance nothing in capability or relations except to taint our relations with all our other, increasingly important,"friends" with whom our interests converge.

American strength is based on economics and their military. Economically, Asia and Europe are starting to catch up and military strength is mattering less and less as the cost - both political and economic - of war has gotten to the point where it far outweighs the benefits. One only has to look at the gigantic US debt accrued as a result of Iraq. The US will probably have preponderance in military power for a very long time, it just won't matter nearly as much as it did, nor does it even today. I think we've already recognized this, the important thing is keeping a foreign policy that reflects it - that means advancing our ability to cooperate and trade while keeping military ventures confined to the necessary.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
....and I have had it with you, lad,...I   totally disagree with several others[hi, sigpig/ape ;)] but at least they bring some form of articulate arguement with them and not the kife you spout.

I love you too.   :-*
 
Did you get "pounded on", Wizard?

People who don't like the rules, moderation, or atmosphere here can:

a) leave

b) address their concerns with the owner, or even the Moderator in question, via PM

Little pouty remarks in the forum aren't really contributing much, are they?


Not sure where all this sense of entitlement and indignation are coming from lately, but this is a private forum - we are all here only at the whim of Mr. Bobbitt
 
Well, I intended to give this a pass, but ... this from Marcus Gee in today's Globe and Mail at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050209/COGEE09/TPColumnists/

Heck no, we won't go -- we're scared

By MARCUS GEE
Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - Page A17

Like generals who are always fighting the last war, Paul Martin is fighting -- or rather not fighting -- the last war in Iraq. Asked on Monday about reports that Canada would be sending a handful of military trainers to Iraq, the Prime Minister replied: "We refused to send troops to Iraq two years ago. That decision stands. Canadian troops will not be going to Iraq." But the fight being waged in Iraq now is not the fight that Ottawa refused to join back then. It is a fight for democracy, and Canada should be in it.

It seems to have escaped Mr. Martin, but things have changed in Iraq. Last week, in an act of civic courage that amazed the world, Iraqis defied terrorist threats to vote en masse in the country's first free election in half a century. The government that will rise out of that vote will have a resounding mandate to build a new Iraq.

Before it can do that, though, it must put down a vicious insurgency whose express purpose is to thwart democracy. To succeed, the government needs to build and train a new army. Last year, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization agreed to send 300 officers to help train soldiers in Iraq and, as a NATO member, Canada is reportedly being asked to contribute 40 of them. That's right, 40 troops, against a U.S. force of 150,000. It seems a small thing to ask, in the cause of creating the first representative government in the Arab world. What possible reason can Mr. Martin have to say no?

That Canada opposed the war in the first place? It won't wash. Canada was against overthrowing Saddam Hussein because the United Nations refused to approve the war and because Ottawa worried about the precedent of an "illegal" invasion. But that debate was over two years ago. There is nothing illegal about the struggle being waged in Iraq now. To the contrary, this is exactly the kind of effort that Canada claims to believe in. Trying to raise Canada's international profile, Mr. Martin says we should do more nation-building and more democracy promotion -- just what Iraq is crying out for.

Before last week, it might have been possible to argue, however implausibly, that Canada was staying out of Iraq because the insurgency was a popular liberation movement and that foreigners had no place helping to put it down. This, in short, was another Vietnam, with nationalist rebels pitted against American interlopers. Last week's election drove a stake through the heart of that argument. By voting in their millions despite rebel threats to kill them if they did, Iraqis showed that, even if they don't like having American troops in their streets, they broadly support the effort to create a new Iraqi government answerable to the people.

Iraq's new national hero is not an insurgent but a Baghdad policeman who saw a suicide bomber approaching a polling station on election day. He wrapped his arms around the man and dragged him away from the crowd, only to be killed when the bomber set off his explosives belt. The election's success has produced a surge of revulsion against the insurgents and a wave of national pride among ordinary Iraqis.

How can Mr. Martin justify refusing to send even a token military force to help them? All Canada's principled objections to the war -- that it's against international law, that the insurgents are popular, that it would be meddling to go -- are as out of date as a Saddam lapel button. There remains only one possible reason for staying out: that Mr. Martin is afraid. Afraid of sending Canadian soldiers to a war zone. Afraid of the ruckus the opposition promises to make if he commits troops after saying he wouldn't.

Canada may agree to train Iraqi soldiers in some safer place, like Jordan. But Iraq? Heck no, we won't go. The message to Iraqis: We may applaud your bravery as you march unarmed to the polls while bombs explode in the background, but we won't send any of our brave, well-armed troops to protect you -- or even to train you to protect yourselves. Sorry, too dangerous.

So let's not pretend we're staying away because of some high-minded objection to a war that is long over. Let's just admit it: We're too scared to go.

Emphasis added

 
Re: The Canadian Forces going to Iraq?
« Reply #125 on: Yesterday at 15:57:06 »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Blakey on Yesterday at 07:36:00
I joined up to help people, the Iraqi's need help, end quote, period.


Have to agree with you there.


Not only that, but the american and british troops down there as well.Those guys are no different than we are, and we're supposed to be allies.Its obvious the US is into a big mess now, and I dunno about anyone else but im growing weary of seeing guys my age getting shot up on a daily basis.The reasons for the war are now irrellevant.To me, the only thing that matters now is ending this and getting as many good troops out of Iraq alive and back to their families as possible.

If the PM said tomorrow we were going, I would not oppose.
 
Glorified Ape said:
Nor do the arguments proposed for this war - especially in the absence of the mantra chanted by the administration in the lead up: WMD. Oops, none there. Funny how the whole "freedom/liberty" stuff didn't get a mention until the whole WMD thing started looking less and less likely. I think that's probably because it was the most ridiculous justification available but excuses were getting scarce. Anyway, I digress.

As I stated in my post, the arguments for Iraq are largely irrelevant.  The fact is that Saddam was a bad guy and was in the General Campaign area, so he was next in line.  If you don't believe that Iraq, Afghanistan, and anything else down the pipeline are part of a larger US Strategy that was kicked into high-gear following 9/11 (which I interpreted in my post) then I guess you and I can agree that we disagree on the entire situation of the current Middle East scenario, Iraq included.

Glorified Ape said:
American strength is based on economics and their military.

I don't think I'll buy that.  Western power is also measured in terms of freedom, culture, opportunity and a strong civil society and America, as the current "top-dog", is the beacon for Western characteristics.  Why do you think that people are lined up to immigrate to the United States (and other Western destinations) rather then to sunny Kazakhstan, Syria, Congo, or Myanmar?

Why do you think that people in Iran, despite government crack-down, really do want to break the rules to listen to Western Music, put up posters of Western Icons, and drink Coca-Cola.

Why do you think the Standard of Living and the quality of Life in the West has generally been the best in the history of civilization?

Why do you think we can sit here and chat about all things political and disagree on policies and administration while in the PRC access to internet (along with other facets of civil society) is limited by government providers and their is strong surveillance and censorship on the average Joe's ability to express his ideas.

No, Western (and by extention, American) strength is based on principles much more enduring then simply money and tanks.  If anything, the money and tanks stem from these qualities, as the Soviets found out to their demise.

(PS - I've obviously rescinded my "ignore politics" pledge - oh well.  However, as the site Owner has underlined, there will be no more denigrating ANYONE'S argument based upon age/rank/position/favorite chocolate bar.)
 
Infanteer makes a convincing argument, and Rusty that was also a good article.

That article made alot of good points, particularly how Paul Martin wants to take a more active role in nation building and upholding democracy worldwide... who else needs it more than Iraq now  :-\
 
Besides being the biggest trading partner of the US, and allies when it comes to continental defense, when has Canada ever gone to war with the US before??   In both World Wars we went as part of the commenwealth to defend the interests and policies of England (I believe the Americans showed up late both times).   In Korea we went under the banner of the UN, as well as Desert Storm under a UN sanctioned conflict.   We skipped Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, and Iraq.   We went to Afghanistan along with our allies in the defense of North America.   Iraq had nothing to do with the security of this country, which is why we stayed out of it in the first place.   We are supporting the 'real' war on terror which was Al Qaeda and their Taliban sympathisers in Afghanistan.  

While Iraq's stability is important, until the mission in its entirety is turned over to the UN, Canada should remain where it is, supporting the peaceful rebuilding of Afghanistan.   We have neither the resources nor the public inclination to become involved in Iraq.   While there is some who say it is only 40 troops, and it would help, that is a joke.   If it is not clear to everyone that our 40 troops would only be used as a propaganda tool for the US, regardless of the no doubt professional and outstanding work they would do, there is something wrong.   Canada has taken sides throughout our history, and we should continue to do so as the country as a majority sees fit.  

Like countless others I joined as well to help, but first and foremost I joined to serve this great country.   That is why no matter what our personal opinions are, the government makes the decisions, not us.   Just my .02 into the mix.
 
Infanteer said:
As I stated in my post, the arguments for Iraq are largely irrelevant.  The fact is that Saddam was a bad guy and was in the General Campaign area, so he was next in line.  If you don't believe that Iraq, Afghanistan, and anything else down the pipeline are part of a larger US Strategy that was kicked into high-gear following 9/11 (which I interpreted in my post) then I guess you and I can agree that we disagree on the entire situation of the current Middle East scenario, Iraq included.

I don't think I'll buy that.  Western power is also measured in terms of freedom, culture, opportunity and a strong civil society and America, as the current "top-dog", is the beacon for Western characteristics.  Why do you think that people are lined up to immigrate to the United States (and other Western destinations) rather then to sunny Kazakhstan, Syria, Congo, or Myanmar?

Why do you think that people in Iran, despite government crack-down, really do want to break the rules to listen to Western Music, put up posters of Western Icons, and drink Coca-Cola.

Why do you think the Standard of Living and the quality of Life in the West has generally been the best in the history of civilization?

Why do you think we can sit here and chat about all things political and disagree on policies and administration while in the PRC access to internet (along with other facets of civil society) is limited by government providers and their is strong surveillance and censorship on the average Joe's ability to express his ideas.

No, Western (and by extention, American) strength is based on principles much more enduring then simply money and tanks.  If anything, the money and tanks stem from these qualities, as the Soviets found out to their demise.

(PS - I've obviously rescinded my "ignore politics" pledge - oh well.  However, as the site Owner has underlined, there will be no more denigrating ANYONE'S argument based upon age/rank/position/favorite chocolate bar.)

The western world extends beyond the US. Canada, the UK, and a score of other countries are quite open, "free" societies but none have had the success of the US. The US' (relatively) unhindered capitalism, combined with their advantageous outcomes and position in WWI and II are what truly established them as THE superpower, militarily and economically. Consumer culture may be a means of securing economic success and growth and, yes, of spreading US culture but they had their superpower status long before the explosion of US MTV "culture" around the world. They achieved it through the military and economic decline of the European powers during and after both World Wars. That military and economic decline, combined with US military and economic expansion, is what established the US as a superpower.
 
jmackenzie_15 said:
Infanteer makes a convincing argument, and Rusty that was also a good article.

That article made alot of good points, particularly how Paul Martin wants to take a more active role in nation building and upholding democracy worldwide... who else needs it more than Iraq now   :-\

I think you will see the CF in the SUDAN before you see them in Iraq for the very reason, it would be a political nightmare for the liberals to send troops to Iraq after the election bashing of the conservatives and their "secret agenda" to send the troops there with Bush and Blair's army. 

I agree the PM wants to make it a more active role but i think Iraq is out of the question at least until next year(or when it stabalizes a little bit) we can send a rebuilding team in with both civilian and military personal.

 
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