Canadian Military Prison

[3rd Herd]

FastEddy,
That saying was actually quite popular in the 60' to late 80's. Sometime an officer or SNCO used his office to settle personal conflicts, some offenses deemed by soldiers as 'honest offenses' but required a brief period on penance. It was frequently used for the most part by CWO's and MWO's a few long time WO.'s. And this attitude also carried over into DB itself. Staff were a lot harder or creative with some than with others. But then that is history.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I think that I posted this in another thead, [ hopefully not this one, but its too late at night to check] remember, one can never confuse the soldier who either lost his way or his temper to the trashbags that come into the "normal" prison system......comparing apples to ..well apple cores.
Of course the "end result" will be different.

 

[Elisha]

But with that saying you have to remember that not all are sent to DB because of some 'crime' persay that would send them to civi jail. 

I have heard it from more than one officer as a matter of fact.  I think the phase cannot be linked in any way to a police officer saying that everyone should commit a crime once to be a better citizen.  DB teaches soldiers a little more disipline...in my opinion.


Elisha

 

[COBRA-6]

DB teaches soldiers a little more disipline...in my opinion.

Elisha

Elisha, are you in the CF?? Just curious because your profile is blank.

 

[KevinB]

  DB teaches soldiers a little more disipline...in my opinion.


Elisha

BD does not instill or teach discipline - recruit school and battleschool should have done that.  DB just helps the soldier reconnect with discipline 

I was in with an AF member -- he was hopeless and had a much tougher time, since he did have the benifits of a PPCLI BattleSchool upbringing.

 

[FastEddy]

FastEddy,
That saying was actually quite popular in the 60' to late 80's. Sometime an officer or SNCO used his office to settle personal conflicts, some offenses deemed by soldiers as 'honest offenses' but required a brief period on penance. It was frequently used for the most part by CWO's and MWO's a few long time WO.'s. And this attitude also carried over into DB itself. Staff were a lot harder or creative with some than with others. But then that is history.

That may be the case onwards from the late 60's, The settling of personal accounts among the Ranks and a useage of (what actions by CSM's & RSM's) and "Honest Offenses" leaves me confused to what you are actually reffering to.

Not being able to comment on the present day Command Structure and Powers /Limits of Sentences by Oi/c, O.C's and C.O's. To the best of my recollection, a WO Oi/c was very limited in his range of punishment and if DB time seemed warranted, he passed sentencing up to the Adjutant and so on.

Service Detainees were regarded not to their sentence or Offense, but to their Conduct and Deportment.
However, Smart Asses have been known to receive the full Hospitality of the Staff and Facilities of the DB.

 

[FastEddy]

I think that I posted this in another thead, [ hopefully not this one, but its too late at night to check] remember, one can never confuse the soldier who either lost his way or his temper to the trashbags that come into the "normal" prison system......comparing apples to ..well apple cores.
Of course the "end result" will be different.

Bruce, you couldn't be more right and I couldn't add anything else.

Cheers.

 

[FastEddy]

I've heard it at least once...

Seems to me that it makes sense... if the civvie prisons actually did what they were supposed to do (rehabillitate) effectively, then the theory is what's coming out the exit are better people then what walked in the entrance...

Given the nature of military prison and the nature of the people sent there, rehabilitation is more the likely effective.

Right again, on our Military Correctional Institutes. For the other (Civilian Prisons) Yeah!, When Pigs Fly.

Cheers.

 

[FastEddy]

But with that saying you have to remember that not all are sent to DB because of some 'crime' persay that would send them to civi jail. 

I have heard it from more than one officer as a matter of fact.  I think the phase cannot be linked in any way to a police officer saying that everyone should commit a crime once to be a better citizen.  DB teaches soldiers a little more disipline...in my opinion.


Elisha

You cannot compare or releat the severity of Military Offences and Criminal Acts.

i.e: You take two weeks un-authorized and informed time off from your important position from your employment. Worst Scenario; Your Fired.

i.e You take two weeks un-authorized and informed time off from your Military place of Duty.
Worst scenario. CB up to 90 Days Detention.

Advocating a Service Personal would be a better Soldier if he or she committed a Serious enough Offense to Warrant Imprisonment is ridiculous. Therefore the parallel.

It has and will be said, A Soldier is usually the better for it. (which in the Military bears no Stigma), which is not the case on Civi Street in both areas.

It is also unfair to those Service Personnel who have obtained the Excellance of their Profession and have forgone the suggested advantage of Arrest and Confinement.

 

[Sheerin]

It has and will be said, A Soldier is usually the better for it. (which in the Military bears no Stigma)

Presumably being sent to DB will show up on ones permanent record, but does the individual after being released have a civilian criminal record as well?

 

[3rd Herd]

Presumably being sent to DB will show up on ones permanent record, but does the individual after being released have a civilian criminal record as well?

Quick answer No if you are in under a CF charge however if you are in under a Criminal Code of Canada Charge and conviction then yes it is the same as being put in and released from civiy jail. Time in DB will show up though on an enhanced background check which is becoming a more common requirement in the civilian world.

 

[geo]

3rd
Not sure it shows up if you apply and receive a pardon.

 

[Elisha]

No i am not in the CF and Kevin I agree with you in saying that it doesnt teach disipline per say but it is a way to reconnect with it definatly! 


I had no idea that time in DB would show up in a background check!


Elisha

 

[3rd Herd]

Geo/Elisah

key word is enhanced. You would be surprised what shows up. Now not everything that does show up is relevent to either employment or to clearance. Most often the interviewer will make that decision. For example your standard Criminal Record Check the very last box on the form contains the disclaimer "may or may not exist". Here the individual compiling the report will ask for clarification from the reportee (individual who the report is being done on) of incidents that have shown up and then will determine the significance of said incident towards what initiated the request ie. employment, clearance level etc.

 

[gnplummer421]

Ah yes SDB Edmonton....spent 25 days there. I never made it out of A wing. Lots of PT and lots of drill. Cell inspections every morning. Three cigarettes a day, one after each meal and we were allowed to talk for Ten minutes after each meal as well. I was there in '83. We had one guy that refused to eat. After a day or so, the medics came, put an IV in him and fed him, then he went into the "hole", a sound proof, lightproof room where you get porridge, bread and water. The time spent in there did not count against your time served. There was one Officer there when I was there, he was apart from everyone else.  If you were there longer than 30 days, you would earn your way into B wing where you would get more privileges and less drill/pt. Long servers were in a dorm and went out on work parties outside of the center.

Learned a valuable lesson there, and changed my crazy ways
Not recommended for the faint hearted.

Gnplummer421

 

[gnplummer421]

Further to my last;

I did get a pardon, which took 18 months to complete. My records were wiped clean (An Officer actually accompanied me to the MP shack and watched the paperwork get pulled). I do believ that if someone dug deep enough, somewhere a record would show up, not a Civvie company, but an employer that would need to do a deep background check for Security clearance. Maybe an MP reading this could clarify.

I should tell you that the food there was amazing, and I lost 15 pounds of fat, and gained 15 pounds of muscle..best shape of my life when I came out. Kinda doing it the hard way though :

Gnplummer

 

[geo]

3rd and gnplumber...
as I stated before, I believe that someone who has received a "royal" pardon (GG is the only authority for issuing pardons) - would have most all accessible records wiped clean of said events & marks.

From what I have witnessed recently, Pedophile info which happened before the establishment of National List .... names aren't there. I know of 3 Reprehensible former cadet leaders who did time for crime .... and basic records are "clean" following "pardons"... (Gawd that makes me angry!!!)

 

[gnplummer421]

Just a FYI;

My charge was a drug offence (a moment of stupidity - half of a reefer)_ 30 days in jail - C&P - deferment of promotion - not worth it, really dumb-ass move. Oh well hindsight is 20/20. Hard lesson learned.

 

[Acorn]

Not being able to comment on the present day Command Structure and Powers /Limits of Sentences by Oi/c, O.C's and C.O's. To the best of my recollection, a WO Oi/c was very limited in his range of punishment and if DB time seemed warranted, he passed sentencing up to the Adjutant and so on.

COs have powers of punishment, and can delegate officers with lesser powers. Now, at least, only Commissioned Officers can be delegated officers. In fact, in my 25-odd years, I don't think that has changed. A WO cannot be a delegated officer, and therefore cannot have powers of punishment under the NDA. The Adjudant had no NDA-derived powers of punishment unless also a Delegated Officer (very rare).

Normally, a CO will delegate company/squadron commanders (OCs) and in a smaller unit may delegate the DCO/XO. The delegated officer has the least powers of punishment, but has the power to refer the charge to a higher authority if he/she feels his/her powers are inadequate (same applies to a CO who can refer it to a higher commader, etc).

 

[FastEddy]

COs have powers of punishment, and can delegate officers with lesser powers. Now, at least, only Commissioned Officers can be delegated officers. In fact, in my 25-odd years, I don't think that has changed. A WO cannot be a delegated officer, and therefore cannot have powers of punishment under the NDA. The Adjudant had no NDA-derived powers of punishment unless also a Delegated Officer (very rare).

Normally, a CO will delegate company/squadron commanders (OCs) and in a smaller unit may delegate the DCO/XO. The delegated officer has the least powers of punishment, but has the power to refer the charge to a higher authority if he/she feels his/her powers are inadequate (same applies to a CO who can refer it to a higher commader, etc).

Acorn, I think anyone who might have read any of my treads have establish that any factual reference to the Military was based on a Pre 1968 period. Even all your 25 years of experience only takes you back to 81, agreed a lot has transpirered since then and a lot before then. Your present claim seems perfectly acceptable as you would not have made it as any current day members could easily debunk it.

However I would suggest that you might hesitate in commenting or disputing on subjects which may have differred during a certain time span.

Actual Title & Designate
Circa 1953                                          W.O.2 Sh.... D.W
                                                          RCASC
                                                          O/ic Motor Compound
                                                          RCAMC School
                                                          Camp Borden Ont.

Our Detachment was attached to the School for Rations, Quarters and Motor Pool Facilities. Major Mechanical Maint. & Repairs were sent to Base RCEME and Pay was handled by Camp HQ.

During my posting I had occasion to submit several offense reports against two of his Drivers for Speeding and was a Witness on their Orders Parades. One was given 7 Days CB and one
7 Days CB & $10.00 fine. And the Orders Parades were conducted in his Office down at the Motor Compound.