Canadian modular assault rifle project, a C7 replacement?

[Fabius]

Still the Rem 870P. Did the RCN replace the 870 with a different shotgun or just move to C8/C7?

 

[medicineman]

In the early 90's when I was posted in Calgary, Brigade set up a deal with the Base Gun Club to take people in to show us how to shoot trap and skeet to (a) learn to use a shotgun, (b) learn instinctive shooting against a moving target and (c) engage moving areal targets. I'd shot a bit of trap in high school - quite enjoyed it. Had a bit of an issue with the skeet range - I think partially when I hit the simultaneous dual target positions and also because the clays were going across the front more than going away like in trap. Oddly, it got sort of fixed when they gave me a Defender set up with a deer barrel on it with rifle sights, since dude thought I was more used to non-bead sights...started wrecking them. Something worked. I bought an Ithaca 37 pump used off a friend I used to shoot trap for awhile afterward. Sold the gun when I moved to Kingston not long after marriage broke up and moved into shacks...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Still the Rem 870P. Did the RCN replace the 870 with a different shotgun or just move to C8/C7?

We moved to C8s with a Sig sidearm.

I think AOPs might carry a shotgun for polar bear defence, but I haven't seen their MAST (Mobile Account Ships Tables).

We also ditched our MP5s. I was sad to see them go, I loved that weapon.

 

[KevinB]

We moved to C8s with a Sig sidearm.

I think AOPs might carry a shotgun for polar bear defence, but I haven't seen their MAST (Mobile Account Ships Tables).

We also ditched our MP5s. I was sad to see them go, I loved that weapon.

Shotguns are a very niche firearm for LE or MIL usage, as virtually anything they do can be better done by other systems.

Neither Slug nor BuckShot are optimal options, as rifle caliber carbines from 5.56mm to 7.62mm NATO provide much better options in terms of precision and penetration, with a common manual of arms.

Less Lethal is one of the areas where the 12ga shines, as so many LE entities have lots of them, and so they are a economical option.
Most of those LL aspects can be done in 40mm for the Military, but it is not a good idea to mix a Lethal System with LL rounds -- one of the reason most LE LL Shotguns are painted specific colors to ensure the user is aware it is a LL system - and no lethal ammo is inserted.

C/UAS, for 99.99% of shooters, a Semi-Auto Shotgun is going to be the better option, given that most users are not internationally ranked skeet shooters - and shotgun training in the mil is a low focus effort.
In the ideal would it would be a C8 like shotgun (Hey Colt Canada make it so) loading from a magazine or drum using the same manual of arms as the C8/C7 series.


While I like the MP-5, it wasn't the easiest system to adapt between the C8 and MP-5, as the charging handle was oddly placed (compared to the C8), the lack of a bolt hold open on empty magazine, and the awkwardness of adding accessories. Plus 9mm kind of faded out when one needed to start considering shots beyond 150m, or targets that may be lightly armored..

 

[NavyShooter]

The AOPS has a RCN version of the C19 Ranger Rifle.

Nice looking firearms.

 

[quadrapiper]

C/UAS, for 99.99% of shooters, a Semi-Auto Shotgun is going to be the better option, given that most users are not internationally ranked skeet shooters - and shotgun training in the mil is a low focus effort.

It's also relatively low-footprint.

Want an easy way to spend a bunch of defence money? Establish skeet ranges all over the place, and also fund a) unit weapons training as a a priority item, and b) additional service weapon firing on existing rifle ranges. Start treating it in a manner similar to the theory with PT: deliver both focused trade/role training and a low-barrier-to-entry opportunity for members to engage in additional practice on their own time.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Shotguns are a very niche firearm for LE or MIL usage, as virtually anything they do can be better done by other systems.

Neither Slug nor BuckShot are optimal options, as rifle caliber carbines from 5.56mm to 7.62mm NATO provide much better options in terms of precision and penetration, with a common manual of arms.

Less Lethal is one of the areas where the 12ga shines, as so many LE entities have lots of them, and so they are a economical option.
Most of those LL aspects can be done in 40mm for the Military, but it is not a good idea to mix a Lethal System with LL rounds -- one of the reason most LE LL Shotguns are painted specific colors to ensure the user is aware it is a LL system - and no lethal ammo is inserted.

C/UAS, for 99.99% of shooters, a Semi-Auto Shotgun is going to be the better option, given that most users are not internationally ranked skeet shooters - and shotgun training in the mil is a low focus effort.
In the ideal would it would be a C8 like shotgun (Hey Colt Canada make it so) loading from a magazine or drum using the same manual of arms as the C8/C7 series.


While I like the MP-5, it wasn't the easiest system to adapt between the C8 and MP-5, as the charging handle was oddly placed (compared to the C8), the lack of a bolt hold open on empty magazine, and the awkwardness of adding accessories. Plus 9mm kind of faded out when one needed to start considering shots beyond 150m, or targets that may be lightly armored..

Recently I have developed a weird fascination for bolt action shot guns.

There is something about their simplicity. And I have always preferred wood and metal.

 

[medicineman]

Recently I have developed a weird fascination for bolt action shot guns.

There is something about their simplicity. And I have always preferred wood and metal.

A friend of my dad's had some interesting firearms - including a bolt action 12g back in the day...he taught me how to shoot.

 

[PrairieFella]

So to shift gears a little bit, time for a CA small arm summary.
C14 replaced C3A1
C19 replaced SMLE
C20 DMR capability introduced
C22 replaced Browning Hi-Power
C6 upgraded to C6A1
CMAR replacing C7A2 and C8A3
EAGLE replacing M203A1

Last men standing in terms of old as shit weapons will be the CG84 and the C9. Have there been any programs looked at to replace either in Army service?

I imagine CANSOF already has?

 

[KevinB]

So to shift gears a little bit, time for a CA small arm summary.
C14 replaced C3A1
C19 replaced SMLE
C20 DMR capability introduced
C22 replaced Browning Hi-Power
C6 upgraded to C6A1
CMAR replacing C7A2 and C8A3
EAGLE replacing M203A1

Last men standing in terms of old as shit weapons will be the CG84 and the C9. Have there been any programs looked at to replace either in Army service?

I imagine CANSOF already has?

I’d like to add:
Eryx replaced by nothing. It was a wet bag of poo any way, but…

M2 CarlG was replaced (at least in the LIB’s) ages ago by the M3, it should easily be replaced by the M4.

C9: the issue replacing the C9 are multi fold. No nation has effectively replaced it.

Brits have put the 7.62mm L7A2 (C6/M240) back into the section

USMC went a different route with the M27 IAR and M38 DMR (Hk416 variants) but retained the M249 in a Coy Arms room to be issued at the Coy Commanders discretion.

Denmark went with the M60E6 for 7.62mm at the section/squad level.

Germany has the MG4 which has some neat features but is basically a heavier M249/C9

SOCOM has fielded the KAC LAMG in small numbers which is a fantastic assault machine gun but doesn’t offer any real sort of sustained fire capability (it’s light and super controllable, but you can’t put it in a tripod to record targets (something Canada doesn’t do with the C9 anyway)

Biggest issue is the confusion/conflict of what a section/squad LMG is supposed to do.
Admittedly SOCOM is having the same issue with their 6.5Creedmore AMG or LWMG program. Some want a LW Assault MG, others want a LW GPMG and can’t agree on the trade offs between weight and support fire applications.

Edit I believe CANSOF bought some of the Israeli NEGEV’s. But also have the 7.62mm MINIMI (which is really just a FN Herstal made Mk48).

 

[Fabius]

Eryx replaced by nothing. It was a wet bag of poo any way, but…

M2 CarlG was replaced (at least in the LIB’s) ages ago by the M3, it should easily be replaced by the M4.

If I am remembering correctly there is an intent to replace the M3 84mm.
However I seem to recall that it’s approaching the problem not from an iterative upgrade, ie. buying the M4 with the Aimpoint FCS and modern ammo natures.

Instead it’s coming at it from a SRAAW Heavy perspective. It’s conceivable that the 84 might get replaced by something like NLAW.

I think that would be a mistake. The 84 is a highly effective and cost efficient weapon for a lot of tasks that needs to be complemented by a dedicated SRAAW Heavy not replaced by such.

 

[KevinB]

I’m not an NLAW fan whatsoever.
As much as I am a Javelin fan, I see it as complementary to the M4 CarlG, as there are applications that each excel at that the other does not.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’m not an NLAW fan whatsoever.
As much as I am a Javelin fan, I see it as complementary to the M4 CarlG, as there are applications that each excel at that the other does not.

MILAN is still a good weapon I would guess. 1850m, day or night

 

[Furniture]

If I am remembering correctly there is an intent to replace the M3 84mm.
However I seem to recall that it’s approaching the problem not from an iterative upgrade, ie. buying the M4 with the Aimpoint FCS and modern ammo natures.

Instead it’s coming at it from a SRAAW Heavy perspective. It’s conceivable that the 84 might get replaced by something like NLAW.

I think that would be a mistake. The 84 is a highly effective and cost efficient weapon for a lot of tasks that needs to be complemented by a dedicated SRAAW Heavy not replaced by such.

I am not in any way an expert in any of these systems, but based on my experience in systems/fields I am an expert in, I think iterative is the best approach.

Too many times companies promise the world, and deliver a sub-par system that in theory is great.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So to shift gears a little bit, time for a CA small arm summary.
C14 replaced C3A1
C19 replaced SMLE Lee Enfield No.4
C20 DMR capability introduced
C22 replaced Browning Hi-Power
C6 upgraded to C6A1
CMAR replacing C7A2 and C8A3
EAGLE replacing M203A1

Last men standing in terms of old as shit weapons will be the CG84 and the C9. Have there been any programs looked at to replace either in Army service?

I imagine CANSOF already has?

Very pedantic point, the C19 did not replace the SMLE, it replaced the No.4s in Ranger use.

No.4s are an evolution of the SMLEs but not the same rifle.

I'm a bit of Enfield nerd, don't mind me I will go back to my corner.

 

[KevinB]

I am not in any way an expert in any of these systems, but based on my experience in systems/fields I am an expert in, I think iterative is the best approach.

Too many times companies promise the world, and deliver a sub-par system that in theory is great.

Honestly I’d suggest that would be three different ECP (iterative upgrade) items.
1) Launcher
2) Optic
3) Ammo

New programs work well for new things, but as this is simply a modernization effort to a current fielded item, running a new program for a upgrade makes for longer time lines and the risk of unintended consequences.