Canadian Soldiers dead

[Michael Dorosh]

What ****ing difference does it make who dropped the bomb? I would be willing to bet my life that the pilot of that plane didn‘t do it on purpose. The Americans have more casualties in training because they train hard, and they lose more men than other nations because they have more men to begin with. Fratricide has been happening since wars began and it is not repeat not an "American" problem.

A fellow my dad grew up with in Canora Saskatchewan was killed with PPCLI in Korea in May 1953 - by another Canadian with a Bren Gun. Look up Henry Althouse at the virtual war memorial to see his picture.

I bet the armchair warriors here wouldn‘t be shooting off their mouths if they were in the same room as a US Air Force pilot. I think we ought to be thankful that the USAF got us through the Cold War safe and sound, and give thanks nightly to whatever God you believe in that the Yanks are on our side. We could not have won WW II without them, and we pretty much owe our sovereignty today to them - both because they lost the desire to annex us, and because they helped protected ourselves from the Soviets/Warsaw Pact for fifty years.

 

[Harry]

Wow, I wish I lived in a world were we could sit back and armchair quarter back the world, like some of you individuals. Canada is an active participant in this operation like it or not. There are lots of posts WRT slamming the government, I don’t think this is the one for that.

But savor this for a minute, we lost Canadians on 9/11, we also have suspected and alleged terrorists using Canada as a stepping off point for their activities. Why are we there, supporting our ally(ies) and ensuring that our commitment to freedom is demonstrated by our participation.

It would seem that there is some derision WRT the US and any subsequent after action report on this incident. If we could only catch up with the US, we would have a REAL Lessons Learned Centre, not in name alone.

The US takes every incident and investigates it, much as we do with our Boards of Inquiry. They however take it one step higher, by ensuring that the LLC follows up on the recommendations and ensures that change, education and checks occur. Unlike many of our BOI’s that are admin shuffles and CYA for the most part.

We can chew the rag in this forum, and we do it good, but most of us base our comments upon hard-earned experience.

UBIQUE

Lest We Forget

 

[Infanteer]

Hooah Harry...

A buddy of mine who went on ROTO 6 with 3rd VP is very pissed right now, cause he knows a couple of the dead. Plus, one of the dead is supposedly an ex-Westie; their were a sh*tload of media down at the armouries tonight, trying to get a story.
However, I ain‘t going to pin the blame on anyone. The only thing I‘ll say is, the F-16 flys too high and too fast to be used in air-to-mud missions.

All I hope to see out of this is that both the Canadian Public and the Liberal government has the cojones to see the War on Terrorism through to the end, so that we know that the death of these troopers is not in vain.

 

[Donjk]

There are some questions need answering about the USAF F16 bombing Canadians in Afghanistan...
Like any soldier the pilot has the right to open fire to defend himself, but he must have been flying too high to see the reflective identifying tape on their helmets (unless the PPCLI were all inside APC‘s and all that showed was MG fire). Assuming he was high, he was likely too high to receive small arms fire. I have observed 500 pound bombs being dropped on a range and a pilot must release his bomb well back of the target, certainly well back of ground fire range. That means that when he flew over the range to "mark" the area he would have deliberately have had to circle around to approach on a bombing run. Once his marking was done and he was well out of range, why did he choose to come back into his perceived danger area simply to engage "the enemy"? When he had been given no orders nor permission to do so?
My sincerest sympathies to all members of 3PPCLI and the families of the casualties and I‘m sure I speak here for all my fellow Hasty P‘s.
donjk

 

[JRMACDONALD]

why did he choose to come back into his perceived danger area simply to engage "the enemy"? because HE thought hewas doing the right thing!!??
it was a screw up- this **** happens!! ( ALllies /Normandy/ 1944-op goodwood -anyone remember that!?)

 

[Harry]

The Apple and Orange principle, take a pilot with some of the most sophisticated sensors in the world and ordinance to boot. Have that pilot fly around in a mostly Free Flight envelope (AKA-if it moves blast it) at night.

Now we start evolving the mission, the intensity for the ground elements are tapering off; the target rich environment for the air jocks is dwindling. Ground troops start to conduct training ex’s to stay on top of their B Game, and it is being done at night.

This jock gets an Int Rep before his mission of possible En activity all over the country, goes into the dark nether. Picks up ground activity, interrogates it with his sensors. Everything he has dealt with to date has been bad guys, put into perspective that he is flying at night relying on electronic interception and ID of a target.

He gets a big juicy one, calls it in, the target is about 14 klicks out from the main camp, movement, fire, threat. The adrenaline is pumping. He starts maneuvering, pulling G’s, dizzy, and tunnel vision, must, must, must.

Too be continued in the form of an after action report.

Sorry, this is one I will wait for the hard cold facts instead of quarter backing.

Lets keep our eye on the ball folks

 

[cagomez]

Op Goodwood. In France our troops ( a lot of them )got plastered by friendly heavy bombers that were suppose to be supporting the advance. They bombed short.

My sincere condolences to those who have lost loved ones in any and all military operations. May it never be in vain

 

[Infanteer]

Correction on the last.

One of the wounded soldiers, MCpl Stanley Clark, was an ex-Westie. God Speed on his and the others recovery.

 

[Anderson56]

SteveT pretty much hit it, I think.

There are lots of unanswered questions about this incident, which have to be answered. But I have already grown tired of talk about cowboys and american failings.

That pilot was a professional, just like those on the ground, and if you think for a minute that he wasn‘t trying to do the right thing in this case you are wrong.

Moreover, I can grant that he may not have ultimately performed well. But even if that is the case, what of the other safeguards that are supposed to be in place. Why didn‘t he know that this was restricted airspace. When he called in his report, is there some reason that the AWACS didn‘t advise him of this fact or offer a caution.

Why didn‘t his controller know what was going on.

Something awful like this rarely results from a single error. It‘s usually a bunch of them, compounded over and over.

How about we wait for the investigation before we start drawing conclusions? [/LIST]

 

[portcullisguy]

Just found out that one of the fallen had joined the CF in 1998... his first regiment was the 48th Highlanders! My regiment has lost one of it‘s own, sadly.

Sun Media reported that Cpl Ainsworth Dyer grew up in Toronto, attended Eastdale Collegiate, and joined the 48th Highlanders before heading to Edmonton to join the Pats.

 

[Jungle]

Excellent point, let‘s remember what Mr Roosevelt once said:

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
THEODORE ROOSEVELT
(Paris Sorbonne,1910)

If you have not been around to know the feeling of fear (that of death) do not judge those who were. Some people on this board act exactly like the media.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JRMACDONALD:
[qb]why did he choose to come back into his perceived danger area simply to engage "the enemy"? because HE thought hewas doing the right thing!!??
it was a screw up- this **** happens!! ( ALllies /Normandy/ 1944-op goodwood -anyone remember that!?)[/qb]

I believe that was a mistaken carpet bombing by Allied planes of Third Canadian Division headquarters, some infantry units and part of a Polish division. Several hundred casualties as a result, including the only Canadian general officer casualty of WW II due to hostile fire (General Salmon was killed in a plane crash so he doesn‘t count) - General RFL Keller, GOC 3 Cdn Div.

The investigation in that one did what it was supposed to, but they didn‘t have the internet aroudn for armchair generals to replay that one nightly on the web.

 

[the patriot]

My sincerest condolences to the friends and families of the paratroopers that passed away. It‘s sad that they will never get the chance to have one last "jab" before descending on a DZ.

-the patriot-

 

[Recce41]

To fellow Paras may St Micheal take care of you!
Fair Winds, Soft Landings
Sgt J. CD,CDS com ( Airborne)

 

[bc_railfan]

i apologize if my comments upset anybody here. this is one man‘s opinion, and i shouldn‘t be flamed because of it. i have a great sense of Canadian pride, and perhaps i am jaded by American actions lately.

Steve T, you dont know me, so please dont make assumptions about me or anyone else. i dont sip lattes in a Vancouver coffee shop or discuss philosophy with my university friends.

i am a high school student with enough balls to even post my opinions on a public board. perhaps they somewhat poorly timed, but not ill-informed.

e-mail me if you have anything else to say about me... [email protected]

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by chet:
[qb]I am a high school student with enough balls to even post my opinions on a public board. perhaps they somewhat poorly timed, but not ill-informed.</a>[/qb]

You may have the basic facts correct, but you don‘t have the experience or knowledge to understand them or interpret them, IMHO. Bashing our closest allies is not ballsy, it‘s gutless, especially with no sources to back up your claims.

If you want to present a reasoned argument as to the incidence of fratricide incidents occurring during US operations, as opposed to other operations today or in the past, do so now.

 

[Infanteer]

Chet, since you are in high-school and your knowledge of the real world is about equal to jack-s**t, please don‘t come in here trying to have pissing matches with people.
There are some troopers around this board who have served in the army longer than you have been on this earth and have first-hand knowledge with many aspects of defence policy, the Americans, and the military in general. So show a little tact and get the lay of the land before you whip your wiener out.

 

[Harry]

To repeat a quote I posted elsewhere Chet.

“If you want to run with the big dogs, don’t be surprised if you catch some fleas”.

Fresh blood like yours is good on this board, but always keep in the back of the memory banks that some of us aren’t as thick skinned as others. In some cases some of us probably have more time accumulated on coffee break than others have in reality.

Don’t get mad, this is a sensitive issue, some of us have lost close friends, co-workers and acquaintances in the past. We as an org have lost troops in circumstances that our government was less than honest about, I.E. Gunther, etc. If you stick it out and do a lot of observing, there is a lot of solid UFI in here mixed with a lot of good ole’ military jesting and rivalry.

Just pick your battles wisely here and when you decide to go all out, make sure you die on the right hill, err post that is.

Hey Infanteer, I almost spit my coffee on the monitor with your last. Had this BIG ape RCR Sgt on a crse a million years ago, that was his, but it ended with.

So show a little tact and get the lay of the land before you whip your wiener (he used another term) out and christen the ground.

:warstory:

 

[Infanteer]

Harry,
Well sir, I am sure that there is a PAM somewhere with "jack-ups" for NCO‘s that I haven‘t been able to find yet. I keep hearing the same great lines, so maybe they are just hiding it up in their mess....

 

[enfield]

Why did these men have to be dead in order for ther accomplishments to be valued and applauded? Why do they as Canadian soldiers only get respect in death?

I mourn for those soldiers and their families and comrades. However, the media frenzy around this is disgusting. Suddenly everyone is the CF‘s best friend and soldiers are loved and respected. But it is all false, as usual.
Bodies have come home before, and troops been in combat before, but no one paid attention. The outcry around this just makes the lack of attention previously paid to casualities even more disgusting. Let us not forget the 106 soldiers that paid the ultimate price on UN missions, or the 16 soldiers that were killed in Yugolsavia.