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Canadian Special Operations Force Command (CANSOFCOM)

CEDE NULLIS

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PuckChaser said:
What does it add? A bunch of conventional guys doing an OMLT task in Afghanistan were killed, so what. It also notes SOF had casualties doing similar, yet likely in higher risk/higher value missions. It doesn't prove either way what force is appropriate for that specific theatre, unless you've got some deeper analysis?

I'm not saying it proves anything. But I think it does speak to what we were talking about earlier in terms of what roles are suitable for SOF vs. line units. I'm not out to argue one way or the other but I think how different nations are approaching these "limited" engagements whether in Afghan, Iraq or Syria is interesting and relevant for the CF. At what point does it become "SF+" rather than just SF? 

It was mentioned earlier (in the Canadian context) that the political will to use SOF troops is higher than conventional troops due to public opinion. In regards to the incident in the article above, this is a relatively new development "after years of President Barack Obama restricting the use of conventional combat troops on the battlefield."

 

Kirkhill

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If I'm understanding the point I think Cede Nullis was referring more to the rules of engagement that each nation has with its press.  In Canada conventional forces are openly deployed and widely covered.  Special Forces are close held.

And that is why I was suggesting rotating individuals through a CSOR subunit on secondment from their parent units rather than deploying light companies. 

Once the Green is swapped for Tan invisibility occurs.  Or so it seems.
 

MarkOttawa

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It was mentioned earlier (in the Canadian context) that the political will to use SOF troops is higher than conventional troops due to public opinion.

Perhaps because the media and "public opinion" are kept largely in the dark and thus less predictably negative reactions of one sort or another, for whatever reason or another.  Plus fewer political demands in Parliament for votes to approve missions.

How convenient but appears can stress default go-to forces.

Mark
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daftandbarmy

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Jarnhamar said:
Not until you can force reservists to train more regularly.

The British Army maintain 2 x SAS (Reserve) Regiments: http://www.army.mod.uk/specialforces/30603.aspx
 

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Lightguns

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Humphrey Bogart

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Lightguns said:
That's an interesting idea, a reserve CSOR battalion with platoons in major cities, with non-RCMP police forces, and tuning their training cycle to police training cycles.  Mutually beneficial and one training standard.

You also get some Ex-CSOR or JTF2 guys that are retired but still might want to serve.  There is a whole thread over on the UK Site ARRSE about 1 Cdo Regiment.  Supposedly most of the Victoria and NSW State ERTs are part of 1 Cdo.  Military gets the benefit of getting highly trained individuals that also bring Real World experience to the table as opposed to just "exercising".

As I said, the unit was deployed extensively in Afghanistan and is a fully integrated component of Aus SOFCOMD
 

daftandbarmy

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Humphrey Bogart said:
You also get some Ex-CSOR or JTF2 guys that are retired but still might want to serve.  There is a whole thread over on the UK Site ARRSE about 1 Cdo Regiment.  Supposedly most of the Victoria and NSW State ERTs are part of 1 Cdo.  Military gets the benefit of getting highly trained individuals that also bring Real World experience to the table as opposed to just "exercising".

As I said, the unit was deployed extensively in Afghanistan and is a fully integrated component of Aus SOFCOMD

TA SAS had their issues in Afghanistan but, based on what I've heard, I think continue to be deployed on ops in various roles such as trainers etc Their 'general war' role remains the same, IIRC:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7575034/SAS-reservists-withdrawn-from-Afghan-front-line.html
 

Humphrey Bogart

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daftandbarmy said:
TA SAS had their issues in Afghanistan but, based on what I've heard, I think continue to be deployed on ops in various roles such as trainers etc Their 'general war' role remains the same, IIRC:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7575034/SAS-reservists-withdrawn-from-Afghan-front-line.html

Who doesn't have issues?

Australia actually went through a similar issue this thread was initially brought back from the dead for.

In attempt to keep casualties low in both Iraq and Afghanistan and also because the Australian Government at the time though SOF casualties would be more acceptable politically, Australia would only allow Special Forces to conduct Offensive Operations in those theatres. As a result, they burned their SOF out, twice having to withdraw their SOTF's because of Operator fatigue.

We've said it ourselves in our SOF Truths:

- Humans are more important than Hardware.
- Quality is better than Quantity.
- Special Operations Forces cannot be mass produced.
- Competent Special Operations Forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.

Using SOF and only SOF as the default for everything is GOOD POLITICS...BAD POLICY
 

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One thing that I have noted with the Brits is that as the SAS and the SBS became more publicly acknowledged, and even as 1 Para was being converted to SAS Direct Action type roles, there seems to be a proliferation of new SOF organizations, like Special Reconnaissance and such that are publicly taking over jobs previously done by mist covered organisations like "The Det".  Once upon a time nobody knew the SAS existed.  Then they did and they didn't know the Det existed.  Then they did. 

I can't help but think this pushing things into the shadows doesn't really change much.  For example, putting more bodies into Tan berets is just going to increase the number of deployed iphones willing to send stories home to the girlfriend.
 

daftandbarmy

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Chris Pook said:
One thing that I have noted with the Brits is that as the SAS and the SBS became more publicly acknowledged, and even as 1 Para was being converted to SAS Direct Action type roles, there seems to be a proliferation of new SOF organizations, like Special Reconnaissance and such that are publicly taking over jobs previously done by mist covered organisations like "The Det".  Once upon a time nobody knew the SAS existed.  Then they did and they didn't know the Det existed.  Then they did. 

I can't help but think this pushing things into the shadows doesn't really change much.  For example, putting more bodies into Tan berets is just going to increase the number of deployed iphones willing to send stories home to the girlfriend.


.... and unauthorized books about B20 type f&ckups :)
 

Haggis

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Lightguns said:
That's an interesting idea, a reserve CSOR battalion ...

This was tried in 4 Div (then LFCA), I believe, in the mid 1980's with the running of one serial of a "Commando Leader's Course".  That's as far as it went.

CANSOFCOM does maintain it's own PRL where ex-Reg F CANSOF members can go once they end their Reg F time.
 

daftandbarmy

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Haggis said:
This was tried in 4 Div (then LFCA), I believe, in the mid 1980's with the running of one serial of a "Commando Leader's Course".  That's as far as it went.

CANSOFCOM does maintain it's own PRL where ex-Reg F CANSOF members can go once they end their Reg F time.

This could probably work if it was heavily reinforced with a Reg F CSOR cadre/ training team and connected directly to CSOR vs. commanded through the various Mo-litia Bdes. It would probably have to be run like a temp agency though, with various individuals heading off at different times to top up units for specific tasks/ ops based on their levels of training and other aspects of 'life readiness'.

(And I think Danjanou knows how that 'Canadian Commando Course' experiment went... :) )
 

Loup

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Hello world,

Quick(ish) question:

I’ve searched through many forums and other sites online and keep coming to the same point, that all members of the Canadian Forces, regardless of their trade or branch, may apply to CANSOFCOM.

However, on the CANSOFCOM website (https://www.canada.ca/en/special-operations-forces-command/corporate/job-opportunities/how-to-join.html) it states: “Civilians cannot join CANSOFCOM directly. Canadian Armed Forces personnel joining CANSOFCOM must have completed their operationally functional point (OFP) in their current occupation and demonstrate that they have the special attributes and training desired to fill these demanding roles.”

My question relates to the “special attributes and training desired”. Someone who is an infantry soldier has the ability to develop specialized skills like patrolling, weapons handling, mountain warfare, parachuting and much more. These are the bare minimum skills that I imagine are needed in the special forces...or am I wrong? Is it truly possible for someone who does not possess this same training to be accepted in an operator role?

For example, let’s say I go to school and become a dentist and then join the CAF as a dental officer (I could even go through DOTP). If I then later decide that I want to join CANSOFCOM, me the dentist will not have the same military training as an infantry soldier. So, will I never be accepted for an operator position even if I show exceptional motivation, leadership, interpersonal skills and the required fitness? Would I have to change my occupation, or are there any courses that someone like me could take on the side?

I was always confused by this “anyone can be selected” point and I was hoping that a fine individual could clarify it for me!

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.
 

TrunkMonkey315

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Any trade can become an Operator. It's definitely possible, and has been done, for non combat arms personnel to pass selection and OT into the Operator trade. They will teach you everything required to do your job when you go on your Special Forces Operators Course.

There are also non-operator jobs that you can apply for. Many trades are represented there and in order to apply most require you to be at least QL3 qualified but certain trades require QL5 or some other specialty courses.

 

PuckChaser

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Patrolling and weapons handling aren't specialized skills, they are the basics.
 

FinnO25

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That actually not accurate, Patrolling is a skill that can be enhanced, I mean as being seen from the Recce point of view, In 3RCR there is a noticeable difference in skill there. Skills can always be enhanced. Thats why courses such as BRP, ARP, and Pathfinder exist.
 

PuckChaser

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CanexPlanIsATrap said:
That actually not accurate, Patrolling is a skill that can be enhanced, I mean as being seen from the Recce point of view, In 3RCR there is a noticeable difference in skill there. Skills can always be enhanced. Thats why courses such as BRP, ARP, and Pathfinder exist.

Yeah, I should have been more clear. Patrolling is a basic soldier skill, that can be specialized and honed with the courses you mentioned. That's why its taught in BMQ-L and Inf DP1.
 

brihard

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Loup said:
Hello world,

Quick(ish) question:

I’ve searched through many forums and other sites online and keep coming to the same point, that all members of the Canadian Forces, regardless of their trade or branch, may apply to CANSOFCOM.

However, on the CANSOFCOM website (https://www.canada.ca/en/special-operations-forces-command/corporate/job-opportunities/how-to-join.html) it states: “Civilians cannot join CANSOFCOM directly. Canadian Armed Forces personnel joining CANSOFCOM must have completed their operationally functional point (OFP) in their current occupation and demonstrate that they have the special attributes and training desired to fill these demanding roles.”

My question relates to the “special attributes and training desired”. Someone who is an infantry soldier has the ability to develop specialized skills like patrolling, weapons handling, mountain warfare, parachuting and much more. These are the bare minimum skills that I imagine are needed in the special forces...or am I wrong? Is it truly possible for someone who does not possess this same training to be accepted in an operator role?

For example, let’s say I go to school and become a dentist and then join the CAF as a dental officer (I could even go through DOTP). If I then later decide that I want to join CANSOFCOM, me the dentist will not have the same military training as an infantry soldier. So, will I never be accepted for an operator position even if I show exceptional motivation, leadership, interpersonal skills and the required fitness? Would I have to change my occupation, or are there any courses that someone like me could take on the side?

I was always confused by this “anyone can be selected” point and I was hoping that a fine individual could clarify it for me!

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

SOF are what they are in part due to being very selective about who they bring in - the character traits they filter and screen for - and in part by an absolutely disciplined mastery of the basics as the foundation for advanced tactics, techniques, and procedures. They are then afforded fantastic materiel resources and logistical support to let them excel.

Of those two things, the skills can be taught. It’s the personality type that has to be brought by the candidate. If the right person walks in the door, they can be taught anything they need to know how to do. We teach recruits how to handle weapons and patrol in a matter of weeks. They are not difficult-to-access skills. If you really want to go the route of SOF, you can genuinely do it from any trade in the CAF. The combat arms may equip you with some practice in dealing with some true physical suck, but again that’s something anyone with the motivation and discipline can work through if they have set it as a goal and work towards it.
 
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