Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)

[McG]

What is the likelyhood that this becomes the Canadian Parachute Regiment under a Conservative government?

 

[Tracker 23A]

Just some food for thought, but in 3RCR right now they are taking names for those who are intrested in trying for CSOR.  

And from the company commanders hour we had the other day the word is that 3RCR will be providing roughly 115 troops by summer 06'.   CSOR will also be stood up in the Oscar coy lines, and O coy will be pretty much disbanded.   CSOR will also be taking over the NEO tasking, as the new unit will be a full company by spring in size capable of handling the NEO tasking (It will have elements from Combat Engineer, Medics, and Arty as well from what I understand).   Lots of buzz coming from a lot of guys in 3RCR about, but we shall wait and see what, if anything comes of it.   As far as it stands right now, if they take 115 fit troops out of 3RCR you are going to cripple the unit for a while yet.   And though we've been told that 3RCR will be getting the focus for new troops and more rest time I still see problems.   One problem being is that they are taking from the senior NCO's those with the courses and the experience (obviously), and from the Pte's/Cpl's those in top shape / switched on - leaving the leftovers for 3RCR - which isn't exactly bad troops, but shall we say not exactly the best example for fresh out of battleschool troops.

You watched the army.ca video link didn't you?  Everything you have just mentioned is already known.

 

[Journeyman]

You watched the army.ca video link didn't you?   Everything you have just mentioned is already known.

Well, I am currently stuck in a place with very limited bandwidth (you'd think the Jimmies were providing), and am not able to access the video yet. So despite the pavlovian flames from some, WProhphet, I'm grateful for your post.

 

[geo]

Wprophet....
in the end, believe that the new unit will be receiving some 100 odd sould from all 3 Infantry regiments over a 1,2 or 3 year period to constitute a parachute / airbornish CSOR force.

Yeah - that means that they will, in turn, lose some turned on NCOs and ORs.

You can only look at it as an oportunity for those left behind to "shine" (or go down in a blaze of glory)

 

[muffin]

FYI all the sig units around the country have been asked for volunteers for the HQ and to provide troops for the JATF. The HQ positions are open immediately with more to come in APS 06, with the JATF stuff coming sometime later. All rank levels from Cpl to MWO.

Has anyone who volunteered heard anything yet?

 

[buzgo]

Has anyone who volunteered heard anything yet?

The posting messages for the CANSOFCOMHQ positions seem to be coming out.

 

[Haggis]

Has anyone who volunteered heard anything yet?

Probably not.  Para 7 states that the deadline for applications is 30 Dec so don't expect any movement before then.

Also these Reserve positions are for the HQs, not the CSOR or SCTF or any other high-speed/low drag units that may fall out of this..

 

[Kev T]

What is the likelyhood that this becomes the Canadian Parachute Regiment under a Conservative government?

I know I shouldn't say this but what the heck I'm in the holiday mood. I like the current name as it better describes the new unit's role as a special forces outfit as compared to a conventional airborne infantry unit but it would make me really happy if we got both a Special Operations Regiment AND a Parachute Regiment. What do you think, good Christmas present or what? ;D

 

[Tracker 23A]

I know I shouldn't say this but what the heck I'm in the holiday mood. I like the current name as it better describes the new unit's role as a special forces outfit as compared to a conventional airborne infantry unit but it would make me really happy if we got both a Special Operations Regiment AND a Parachute Regiment. What do you think, good Christmas present or what? ;D

The CSOR will be special operations capable, not special forces.

Such as the Green Berets are the US Army's special forces, the US Army Rangers are their special operations capable affiliate.

 

[Sf2]

most assume the two are one in the same.....

do you have a defintion for both?

 

[MedCorps]

Ah... but CSOR will have a "Special Forces" Company (the "4th" coy... 1-3 being Direct Action Coys, and the "5th" Coy being Sp Coy).  I wonder what this SF Coy is all about? 

Hmm...

MC 

 

[Tracker 23A]

most assume the two are one in the same.....

do you have a defintion for both?

Special Operations Capable (SOC), is a rapidly deployable airborne capable light infantry unit organized and trained to conduct highly complex joint direct action operations in coordination with or in support of other special operations units, such as JTF 2. They are also able to execute direct action operations in support of conventional operations and can operate as conventional light infantry.

whereas:

Special Forces are those forces organized, trained, and equipped to conduct special operations with an emphasis on unconventional warfare capabilities.

 

[Tracker 23A]

Special Operations Capable (SOC), is a rapidly deployable airborne capable light infantry unit organized and trained to conduct highly complex joint direct action operations in coordination with or in support of other special operations units, such as JTF 2. They are also able to execute direct action operations in support of conventional operations and can operate as conventional light infantry.

whereas:

Special Forces are those forces organized, trained, and equipped to conduct special operations with an emphasis on unconventional warfare capabilities.  They are relatively small military units raised and trained for special operations missions such as Special Reconnaissance (SR), Unconventional Warfare (UW), Direct Action (DA), Terrorism (T), Counter-Terrorism (CT), and Foreign Internal Defense (FID).

These are the DoD definitions of these terms.

 

[Kev T]

Thanks for the clarification. What about special forces and special operations forces? The CSOR has been labelled as a special operations force. Are SOF the same as SOC? I always thought that special forces and special operations forces were the same thing, though I may have read a thing or two somewhere that said otherwise, but according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces, SF and SOF seem to be the same. I figured that the US military was one that used the term SOF to describe all their "special" elite units because the term "Special Forces" was already used by, well, US Army Special Forces and we being Canada next door just decided to follow suit while other countries such as the UK used the term special forces as they don't actually have any units specifically called "special forces" like the US does. On the JTF2 webpage the term special operations force is used and I figured well JTF2 was just as much a special forces unit as any Green Beret unit so I went from there. Whew I don't think I've said the word "special" so many times in a post. In the end I guess they're all special in some way or other. Anyways thanks for the definitions on SF and SOC.

 

[Good2Golf]

Wikipedia sometimes has some hiccups.  I think most in the fold will agree that SOF and SF are not the same thing.  SOF is considered to be a more specialized force both in terms of capabilities and in employment.  Special forces, while quite capable in their own right, are generally a larger force supporting SOF or conducting operations on their own in support of more generic combat forces.

Ex of SOF: Element of 22SAS, JTF2, SFOD(D), DEVGRP, TAG1(I think 1 is, AUS SOF)
Ex of SF: Para, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Recon, Spetznaz, TAG2(AUS SF, I think I got the 1-2 thing right)

I've probably got the Aussie TAG's mixed up or something, but I think that's the general idea (of course, corrections to all above are invited)

As well, I've only seen SOC to refer to a unit's capabilities, as in a spec ops-capable unit.  An example would be a spec ops-capable Marine Expeditionary Unit, or MEUSOC.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Kilo_302]

sup everyone
just signed up for the board.

Anyways, does anyone have any more specific info on the role that the SF Coy will play in CSOR. To me it would appear that with the creation of this unit, JTF2 will be reserved for domestic/international CT, VIP protection and other strategic missions. The SF Coy on the other hand would be akin to something like the US Green Berets, and be responsible for other green ops. Obviously that would mean the Direct Action Coys role would be somewhat similar to the US Army Rangers. The only problem I see here is the fact that the Army has such small human resources to draw from to support all these different roles. Regular recce units have sent 4 man patrols into the mountains in Aghanistan, begging the question do we really need the SF coy? Wouldnt small patrols from the Direct Action Coys, or JTF2 suffice? Of course, this is assuming we are using the US army model for SOC/SF units. I have read some interesting posts about 4 RAR working with ASASR, but does 4 RAR have a specialized SF Coy like we are creating? Are there any similar units in the world? Or is this just a question of labels ( is the SF Coy more of a pathfinder unit for a new Airborne Regiment )At least Canadian soldiers will now have more rungs on the ladder to climb 

A secondary question. Do you guys think that at least the SF Coy will have access to a greater variety kit like JTF2 does, or do you think they still stick to standard CF issue? Anyone care to speculate?

 

[AIC_2K5]

Is there a possibility that this 'SF Coy' within the CSOR could perhaps be a JTF-2 squadron/coy/unit that rotates through the regiment on a managed readiness basis?

It would make sense in terms of logistics, training, organization, and manpower shortages.

Just a thought...

 

[baboon6]

Wikipedia sometimes has some hiccups.  I think most in the fold will agree that SOF and SF are not the same thing.  SOF is considered to be a more specialized force both in terms of capabilities and in employment.  Special forces, while quite capable in their own right, are generally a larger force supporting SOF or conducting operations on their own in support of more generic combat forces.

Ex of SOF: Element of 22SAS, JTF2, SFOD(D), DEVGRP, TAG1(I think 1 is, AUS SOF)
Ex of SF: Para, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Recon, Spetznaz, TAG2(AUS SF, I think I got the 1-2 thing right)

I've probably got the Aussie TAG's mixed up or something, but I think that's the general idea (of course, corrections to all above are invited)

As well, I've only seen SOC to refer to a unit's capabilities, as in a spec ops-capable unit.  An example would be a spec ops-capable Marine Expeditionary Unit, or MEUSOC.

Cheers,
Duey

I've never heard those definitions before. The US DOD would define all the units you just mentioned as SOF. SOF really is a term which is mainly used in the States, because as Kev T said "Special Forces" was already taken and couldn't be used as a collective. In most other countries either "special forces" or "special operations" is the overall term for their "SOF" eg in Britain it is UKSF, in Australia it is Aus Special Operations Command (AUSSOCMD), in France COS.

 

[McG]

Duey,
I think you are trying to get into the special operations tiering.   Meanings behind "special forces" and "special operations capable" etc vary between nations.   However, as we have run into in other threads, everybody seems to define each tier a little different and nobody has been able to point out a STANAG or CF standard.

Here are two previous times that we've looked at this:
Tier discusion in the JTF thread
Tier discusion in the Airborne Regt vs SOC Bde thread

 

[Good2Golf]

Duey,
I think you are trying to get into the special operations tiering.  Meanings behind "special forces" and "special operations capable" etc vary between nations.  However, as we have run into in other threads, everybody seems to define each tier a little different and nobody has been able to point out a STANAG or CF standard.

Here are two previous times that we've looked at this:
Tier discusion in the JTF thread
Tier discusion in the Airborne Regt vs SOC Bde thread

Actually MCG, I was trying to avoid it and stay more general, maybe I should've sat back, eaten some popcorn, and wiat for my sentence in my staff job to end....   Yup, I definitely remember the Tier I, II, III discussions before...  If you thought the discussion there was interesting, you should have seen it on 101's EX floor a little while ago...I witnessed a healthy debate on the tiers' definition in front of the CDS and DCDS...

You're absolutely right that there is no one definitive word on SOF, SF, etc... To stay perfectly in my lane, I know that the 160th SOAR(A) guys I've flown with in the past are considered "special ops"...

p.s. So we do Tier I, II but not III (by US def'ns), right?  >

Cheers,
Duey