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CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

I don't mean a YouTube "doctor"
Are the opinions of doctors with Youtube channels any less valid because of the means by which they share their experiences? Why not?

When one of them puts on a standard cloth mask, as is widely considered to be acceptable "protection", and blows smoke through it and around the edges, especially between the eyes and nose, I consider that a pretty good demonstration of the ineffectiveness of such masks.

I'll listen to as large a selection of differing viewpoints as I can.
 
All constitutional rights are subject to limitations. Even in the US, where they take the view that their rights emanated from a mountain top not man, are subject to limitations.
Which varies by state. Those with the least infringements of protected rights are the better places to live.
 
Worrying new clues about the origins of Covid: How scientists at Wuhan lab helped Chinese army in secret project to find animal viruses, writes IAN BIRRELL

  • Scientists at Wuhan lab were on massive project investigating animal viruses
  • Documents obtained by The Mail on Sunday have revealed a nationwide scheme
  • It was being directed by leading state body, which was launched nine years ago
  • Its aim was to find new viruses and detect 'dark matter' of biology involved in spreading disease - alongside military officials, despite denials of any such links

By Ian Birrell 24 April 2021

Scientists studying bat diseases at China's maximum-security laboratory in Wuhan were engaged in a massive project to investigate animal viruses alongside leading military officials – despite their denials of any such links.

Documents obtained by The Mail on Sunday reveal that a nationwide scheme, directed by a leading state body, was launched nine years ago to discover new viruses and detect the 'dark matter' of biology involved in spreading diseases.

One leading Chinese scientist, who published the first genetic sequence of the Covid-19 virus in January last year, found 143 new diseases in the first three years of the project alone.

The fact that such a virus-detection project is led by both civilian and military scientists appears to confirm incendiary claims from the United States alleging collaboration between the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) and the country's 2.1 million-strong armed forces.

The scheme's five team leaders include Shi Zhengli, the WIV virologist nicknamed 'Bat Woman' for her trips to find samples in caves, and Cao Wuchun, a senior army officer and government adviser on bioterrorism.

Prof Shi denied the US allegations last month, saying: 'I don't know of any military work at the WIV. That info is incorrect.'

Yet Colonel Cao is listed on project reports as a researcher from the Academy of Military Medical Sciences of the People's Liberation Army, works closely with other military scientists and is director of the Military Biosafety Expert Committee.

Cao, an epidemiologist who studied at Cambridge University, even sits on the Wuhan Institute of Virology's advisory board. He was second-in-command of the military team sent into the city under Major General Chen Wei, the country's top biodefence expert, to respond to the new virus and develop a vaccine.

The US State Department also raised concerns over risky 'gain of function' experiments to manipulate coronaviruses at the Wuhan lab and suggested researchers fell sick with Covid-like symptoms weeks before the outbreak emerged more widely in the Chinese city.

More at link.
 
Thanks.

But my point is not whether people don't like "the cut of his jib", it's the fact that he persists in breaking the law.
Then he should be ticketed/arrested.

Not defending his actions but my point is, ultimately unless he commits a Criminal Code Offence that renders him ineligible to run for public office, him being an Ontario MPP is matter between him and voters of his constitutiency.
 
There it is. I was waiting for someone to victim blame. You just illustrated the perfect example of why all these draconian measures are BS. They're predicated around the non-scientific assumption that everyone that gets COVID must have seen it coming, and must have done something to contract it. It's quite frankly disgusting that you, as a former medical professional can sit here and broad-brush everyone who gets COVID as people who are "selfishish idiots" for contracting an invisible, airborne disease that infects individuals as fast as a common cold.
I wasn't referring to people who use preventive measures to try and reduce the spread. I was referring to the people who gather in large groups (without masks) at anti-lockdown rallies and churches, etc.

No one has said that masks work 100%. It's been proven that they don't. But they do help to reduce spread. As does reducing contact with other people, particularly large groups.

I feel sorry for people who have tried to avoid getting COVID and still got the illness. I have no sympathy for the partiers and gatherers who got it (or might get it) regardless of how much they might regret their actions when it's them lying in a hospital bed, attached to a ventilator.
 
Are the opinions of doctors with Youtube channels any less valid because of the means by which they share their experiences? Why not?

When one of them puts on a standard cloth mask, as is widely considered to be acceptable "protection", and blows smoke through it and around the edges, especially between the eyes and nose, I consider that a pretty good demonstration of the ineffectiveness of such masks.

I'll listen to as large a selection of differing viewpoints as I can.
Pardon me, maybe I should have said Bitchute instead of You Tube.

As far as the mask smoke test, do you mean this guy? Doctor with expired license falsely claims masks don’t work

No, a vaping demo doesn’t prove that masks don’t work against COVID-19

There's nothing wrong with checking out differing viewpoints, but some logic must be applied to determine factualness. Usually searching for the publication and/or the author or scientist making the claim is sufficient (for me).
 
Some people have reached a whole superior level of stupid:

Miami School Embraces Falsehoods, Bars Vaccinated Teachers From Student Contact​

A co-founder of the private school told parents it was now her policy “not to employ anyone who has taken the experimental COVID-19 injection.”
A private school in Miami banned teachers vaccinated against COVID-19 from contact with students because of its co-founder’s misguided beliefs in anti-vaccine conspiracy theories.
The Centner Academy, a prekindergarten to 8th-grade school in the city’s fashionable Design District, sent a letter to faculty and other staff last week informing them “with a heavy heart” that the vaccinated would be barred from student contact and could lose their jobs, The New York Times first reported Monday.
Leila Centner, who founded the school in 2019 with her husband David Centner, claimed in the message that “reports have surfaced recently of non-vaccinated people being negatively impacted by interacting with people who have been vaccinated,” according to the Times.

She noted that vaccinated individuals “may be transmitting something from their bodies” that could harm others, particularly the “reproductive systems, fertility, and normal growth and development in women and children.”
Centner offered no specifics or scientific facts. She claimed in a letter to parents to be consulting with unnamed “doctors.” As for the lack of evidence, Centner claimed her information is “new and yet to be researched.”
The future for vaccinated teachers at the school was bleak. “It is our policy, to the extent possible, not to employ anyone who has taken the experimental COVID-19 injection until further information is known,” Centner wrote to parents. ...
Miami School Embraces Falsehoods, Bars Vaccinated Teachers From Student Contact

🤦‍♂️
 
Pardon me, maybe I should have said Bitchute instead of You Tube.

As far as the mask smoke test, do you mean this guy? Doctor with expired license falsely claims masks don’t work

No, a vaping demo doesn’t prove that masks don’t work against COVID-19

There's nothing wrong with checking out differing viewpoints, but some logic must be applied to determine factualness. Usually searching for the publication and/or the author or scientist making the claim is sufficient (for me).

If anything can leak through or out around a mask, something can leak in. Will it be enough to cause an infection? Can it successfully negotiate sudden changes in direction of airflow (the principle by which particle separators that protect helicopter engines work)? Maybe. Maybe not. That video may not prove that masks are useless to the satisfaction of some, but it still demonstrates mask protection imperfection.

And are "droplets" the only concern with masks? My earliest research suggested that they were the most likely cause of aerial transmission, but, from having read many claims of airborne transmission, I went looking for more information:

Dismantling myths on the airborne transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2) January 12, 2021

"There is little, if any, direct evidence for the transmission of SARS-CoV-2 via any specific pathway. This statement applies to fomites and direct contact just as much as for large droplets and smaller airborne particles. It is notable that transmission through large droplets has never been demonstrated directly for any respiratory virus infection [7], [17]. The proof required to elicit these routes of transmission should include genomic sequencing and matching of the target pathogen at source (e.g. on fomites or hands) with that causing subsequent disease in the recipient, along with sufficient evidence to exclude any other source of the pathogen strain before or during the study. However, genomic studies tracking a single virus are very difficult and expensive to perform, and they may fail [18]."

Not all masks are the same, obviously. Not all masks are worn properly, obviously. I see many people with commercially-made cloth and disposable masks who do not bother to use the bendy strips that improve the “seal” around the wearers’ noses.

I have quality, dual-layer masks that can accept filters. The earlier masks that my sister and I made are dual-layer with two types of fabric and can accept filters. We used 3M MERV-13 furnace filter material for those. Other than a six-hour trial of our home-made masks to test the difference in comfort, acceptability of reduction to breathing, and leakage around the bridge of my nose, I have not used filters. I clamp the nose-bridge-stiffener-thingy down as firmly as I can, partially because I do not like air being blown into my eyeballs and/or fogging my glasses when worn.

Are masks better than nothing? Maybe. Should people wear them? Why not?

I’ve pasted some relevant quotes from An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19 PNAS January 26, 2021, one of the references in one of the two fact-checking links that you provided, below.

“Therefore, we should not be surprised to find that there is no RCT (Randomized Controlled Trial) for the impact of masks on community transmission of any respiratory infection in a pandemic.”

Only one observational study has directly analyzed the impact of mask use in the community on COVID-19 transmission. The study looked at the reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Beijing households by face mask use (10). It found that face masks were 79% effective in preventing transmission, if they were used by all household members prior to symptoms occurring. The study did not look at the relative risk of different types of mask.”

“They found that ‘face mask use could result in a large reduction in risk of infection.’ However, the review included only three studies of mask use outside health care settings, all of which were of SARS, not of SARS-CoV-2, one of which was incorrectly categorized (it occurred in a hospital, but during family and friend visits), and one of which found that none of the households wearing masks had any infections, but was too underpowered to draw any conclusions (12). The remaining study found the use of masks was strongly protective, with a risk reduction of 70% for those that always wore a mask when going out (13), but it did not look at the impact of masks on transmission from the wearer. It is not known to what degree analysis of other coronaviruses can be applied to SARS-CoV-2. None of the studies looked at the relative risks of different types of mask.”

“Overall, evidence from RCTs and observational studies is informative, but not compelling on its own.”

None of the studies looked specifically at cloth masks.”

“A Cochrane review (15) on physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses included 67 RCTs and observational studies. It found that ‘overall masks were the best performing intervention across populations, settings and threats.’ There is a similar preprint review by the same lead author (16), in which only studies where mask wearing was tested as a stand-alone intervention were included, without combining it with hand hygiene and physical distancing, and excluding observational studies. That review concluded that ‘there was insufficient evidence to provide a recommendation on the use of facial barriers without other measures.’ MacIntyre and Chughtai (17) published a review evaluating masks as protective intervention for the community, protection for health workers, and as source control. The authors conclude that ‘community mask use by well people could be beneficial, particularly for COVID-19, where transmission may be pre-symptomatic. The studies of masks as source control also suggest a benefit, and may be important during the COVID-19 pandemic in universal community face mask use as well as in health care settings.’”

“The Usher Institute incorporated laboratory as well as epidemiological evidence in their review (18), finding that ‘homemade masks worn by sick people can reduce virus transmission by mitigating aerosol dispersal. Homemade masks worn by sick people can also reduce transmission through droplets.’ One preprint systematic review (19) including epidemiological, theoretical, experimental, and clinical evidence found that ‘face masks in a general population offered significant benefit in preventing the spread of respiratory viruses especially in the pandemic situation, but its utility is limited by inconsistent adherence to mask usage.’ On the other hand, a preprint systematic review that only included RCTs and observational studies (20) concluded, based on the RCTs, that there was only weak evidence for a small effect from mask use in the community, but that the RCTs often suffered from poor compliance and controls. It found that, in observational studies, the evidence in favor of wearing face masks was stronger.”

“A randomized intervention trial (24) found that ‘face masks and hand hygiene combined may reduce the rate of ILI [influenza-like illness] and confirmed influenza in community settings.’”

“Overall, direct evidence of the efficacy of mask use is supportive, but inconclusive. Since there are no RCTs, only one observational trial, and unclear evidence from other respiratory illnesses, we will need to look at a wider body of evidence.”
 
Are masks better than nothing? Maybe. Should people wear them? Why not?
Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms; nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.

The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained.

Models suggest that public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high.
 
And, probably, illegality.

I sense law suits in somebody's future.
I'm not so sure about illegality.

My last book had a very minor sub plot where a witness was a teacher at a Christian Religious school in Florida using the Accelerated Christian Education system (ACE) as the basis for instruction. My research on that found the entire private school system (and not just in Florida) to be horrific. Under various voucher programs the state governments pay over millions of dollars to schools where staff do not have to have any of the requirements that public school do and at the same time the government had passed laws which restrict state education inspectors to review only ten out of thousands of schools in operation every year. (at the time - 2017 - Florida had some 140,000 students enrolled in 2,000 such schools - one example they cited was a school receiving half a million in state funding where the principal was a 24 year-old still going to community college) Note that these are not just schools where parents pay heavily for a private education. Many of these are for the poor and almost fully paid for by the state but privately run. What makes ACE a great system for these places is that basically it requires very little teaching. Most students just sit at their partitioned desks and go through self-study workbooks all day long.

The Orlando Sentinel wrote a series of articles on the subject a few years ago and they made my hair curl.

Schools Without Rules: An Orlando Sentinel Investigation

Accelerated Christian Education - Wikipedia
 
When I went to get vaccinated they wanted me to wear a disposable medical mask as opposed to mine with charcoal filters and exhaust valves. The medical mask are not particularly effective when you have a beard. Besides being a physical barrier the N95 mask is supposed to trap fine particles through a differential charge, my guess is that most of the current medical masks don't succeed at that.
 
I'm not so sure about illegality.

My last book had a very minor sub plot where a witness was a teacher at a Christian Religious school in Florida using the Accelerated Christian Education system (ACE) as the basis for instruction. My research on that found the entire private school system (and not just in Florida) to be horrific. Under various voucher programs the state governments pay over millions of dollars to schools where staff do not have to have any of the requirements that public school do and at the same time the government had passed laws which restrict state education inspectors to review only ten out of thousands of schools in operation every year. (at the time - 2017 - Florida had some 140,000 students enrolled in 2,000 such schools - one example they cited was a school receiving half a million in state funding where the principal was a 24 year-old still going to community college) Note that these are not just schools where parents pay heavily for a private education. Many of these are for the poor and almost fully paid for by the state but privately run. What makes ACE a great system for these places is that basically it requires very little teaching. Most students just sit at their partitioned desks and go through self-study workbooks all day long.

The Orlando Sentinel wrote a series of articles on the subject a few years ago and they made my hair curl.

Schools Without Rules: An Orlando Sentinel Investigation

Accelerated Christian Education - Wikipedia
My wife teaches at a private school, I will argue that their teaching standards are far stricter than the public schools here and the resources to support student far more than public schools. Not to mention consequences for students that don't behave and don't keep up their school work.
 
The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained.

Models suggest that public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high.

"Suggests" and "could", again.

"below 1" means that the number of cases would drop, right?

I have not seen an overall issue with compliance, in normal activities. Quality of masks and less-than-ideal wearing practices, yes.

So ... has the spread actually been reduced?
 
My wife teaches at a private school, I will argue that their teaching standards are far stricter than the public schools here and the resources to support student far more than public schools. Not to mention consequences for students that don't behave and don't keep up their school work.
But does she teach in Florida?
 
So ... has the spread actually been reduced?
Impossible to determine as the spread rate without any masking is not measurable.

Short of MOPP High CBRN gear or equivalent, no, the transmission rate cannot be guaranteed to be zero, but given the correlative data on a notable reduction of aerosol outgassing by wearing any face covering out of consideration for reducing exposure to others, let alone those who choose to wear N95 masks to reciprocally protect themselves (and others), it’s not unreasonable to continue wearing masks until R is well below 1.

Does anyone have any example of recent recommendations to stop wearing masks?
 
"Suggests" and "could", again.

"below 1" means that the number of cases would drop, right?

I have not seen an overall issue with compliance, in normal activities. Quality of masks and less-than-ideal wearing practices, yes.
I got that info right from the link you posted.

I've not really seen an overall issue with compliance except for anti-mask/lockdown rallies and some church services.

Other examples of non-compliance are people gathering in large groups. but hey, it's all about our "freedom" right?
 
When I went to get vaccinated they wanted me to wear a disposable medical mask as opposed to mine with charcoal filters and exhaust valves. The medical mask are not particularly effective when you have a beard. Besides being a physical barrier the N95 mask is supposed to trap fine particles through a differential charge, my guess is that most of the current medical masks don't succeed at that.

Seems to be a standard practice for medical related sites and, IMHO, makes sense. I don't recall if the pharmacy where I received my vaccination had such a requirement as there was a low volume of traffic when I was there and I was wearing a disposable mask anyway. However, over the past several months, I've had to go to a medical lab a few times as well as a visit to my ophthalmologist's clinic. Both places had a requirement to wear a disposable medical mask while there. If one did not have such, they were provided with one upon check-in. The lab, actually, provided a disposable mask to all regardless of the type worn on entry and individuals could either change the mask or wear the disposable over whatever they already had.

As I understand their policy, it is to ensure that all have an adequate face covering without the lab/clinic staff having to get into arguments with those who do not have an appropriate mask. While you may think your N95 (with a beard?) may provide better protection than a disposable medical mask, there may, hell, definitely will be clowns who not only try to enter and remain at these locations with their versions of improvised masks, but when challenged will use the excuse that such and such is not wearing a "disposable" mask, why are you not making them. Of the improvised masks I seen, among the scarves, balaclavas and pulled-up turtlenecks the most distinctive I've noted was a woman wearing a pair of lace panties (thong, actually) on her head. She was very vocal when challenged about it not being an adequate mask as well as started screaming obscenities at some of us (me included) who looked at her quizzically.
 
When I went to get vaccinated they wanted me to wear a disposable medical mask as opposed to mine with charcoal filters and exhaust valves. The medical mask are not particularly effective when you have a beard. Besides being a physical barrier the N95 mask is supposed to trap fine particles through a differential charge, my guess is that most of the current medical masks don't succeed at that.
I had the same experience when vaccinated as well as at blood donor clinics. Their argument to me was they know it is new and fresh, as opposed to a mask with an unknown history or debating the merits of the various masks that come through the door. PHU procedures as handed down to the staffers.
 
Impossible to determine as the spread rate without any masking is not measurable.

Does anyone have any example of recent recommendations to stop wearing masks?
Yes, obviously. The closest so far would be those US jurisdictions that have opened up/are opening up, but there are still people wearing masks.

No. Just indications (and not proof) that they are not as good as some have claimed.
 
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