CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter

[Quirky]

perhaps if we weren't flying the sopwith camels of the 21st century getting folks to fly wouldn't be such a problem

If the F-35 can't help with retention then it's not a question of equipment.

 

[Kirkhill]

How long did the RN and the RAF spend sending their F35 pilots to train with the USAF/USN/USMC? How many of their pilots were trained with the Yanks?

Why not start slotting Canadians into the American rotations?

That also seems to be part of the game plan with AUKUS subs. Mixed crews.

 

[dapaterson]

How long did the RN and the RAF spend sending their F35 pilots to train with the USAF/USN/USMC? How many of their pilots were trained with the Yanks?

Why not start slotting Canadians into the American rotations?

That also seems to be part of the game plan with AUKUS subs. Mixed crews.

Read in to the program, perhaps.

 

[YZT580]

If the F-35 can't help with retention then it's not a question of equipment.

We don't have it yet and if I signed up now I would be on F18's for most of my flying career. My rationalization being that my training would just have been completed at the time the first ones arrive. Assuming that both seniority rules and the need to get some return on their training investment dollar I would be one of the last to transition.

 

[Fabius]

Nah, the solution is to assemble intelligent and persuasive information to convince government to make a decision, and not half ass a sole source.

Oh, and to make sure that the half assed some source proposal doesn't include features that have not been implemented yet as your sole source rationale.

TL;DR put smart people in charge, not a fighter pilot with a pay to play executive MBA.

The characterization of the F35 as a sole source procurement has always bothered me.
Canada signed on to the JSF program before the fly off between Boeing and Lockheed in 1997 and then became a firm partner in the entire JSF program once the Lockheed plane was selected for further development.
To describe the procurement of the F35 as a sole source is to fundamentally misunderstand how a developmental program works for a military working with industry and indicates how unserious Canada is and why we are incapable of developing large programmes ourselves.

 

[dapaterson]

The JSF MOU provides for the opportunity, but not obligation, to procure. The decision to enter into the MOU at no time created an obligation - and indeed left many ways to leave.

JSF is a boondoggle of waste and of engineering being trumped by porkbarrel politics and small whiny communities inflicting damage on the greater good (looking at you, USMC). That it's now the only game in town does not absolve the program of its many sins, nor make it a model worth emulating in the future.

 

[Kirkhill]

Read in to the program, perhaps.

Arrival of final 2 F-35s completes complement at Alaska base

The final two F-35A Joint Strike Fighter jets have arrived at Eielson Air Force Base near Fairbanks.

www.airforcetimes.com

It seems as if Elmendorf would be a natural training ground. Along with Klamath Falls, Oregon.

Kingsley Field to host F-35A Formal Training Unit

The DAF plans to convert the F-15C Eagle Formal Training Unit at Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls, Oregon, into a third F-35A Lightning II FTU.

www.af.mil

 

[Good2Golf]

The JSF MOU provides for the opportunity, but not obligation, to procure. The decision to enter into the MOU at no time created an obligation - and indeed left many ways to leave.

JSF is a boondoggle of waste and of engineering being trumped by porkbarrel politics and small whiny communities inflicting damage on the greater good (looking at you, USMC). That it's now the only game in town does not absolve the program of its many sins, nor make it a model worth emulating in the future.

You aren’t Alan Williams secret offspring, are you?

So we should have gone with Gripen for how much Canada actually cares about integratable capability?

 

[QV]

Canada's procurement processes are a colossal boondoggle. And politicking away Canada's defence capability should be a criminal offence.

 

[dapaterson]

You aren’t Alan Williams secret offspring, are you?

So we should have gone with Gripen for how much Canada actually cares about integratable capability?

No - but we shouldn't have written a SOR that the F35, at the time of writing, did not meet.

 

[Good2Golf]

No - but we shouldn't have written a SOR that the F35, at the time of writing, did not meet.

You’ll have to be more specific as to which of the SORs we wrote to which you are referring. The number of variants is non-unitary…

 

[CBH99]

Weren’t we told that buying antique Aussie retired Hornets would make things AOK?

We were told a lot of things in life that didn't pan out to be true...

We were also told that "replacing them was of the highest priority..."


...we also need to keep in mind that the person who reassured us everything would be a-okay is also the least qualified person on the planet to say such things...

 

[Quirky]

We were told a lot of things in life that didn't pan out to be true...

One of which was the Super Hornet interm plan which would’ve effectively killed the F-35 in Canada. The Aussie hornets weren’t that bad compared to the alternative.

 

[Spencer100]

The JSF MOU provides for the opportunity, but not obligation, to procure. The decision to enter into the MOU at no time created an obligation - and indeed left many ways to leave.

JSF is a boondoggle of waste and of engineering being trumped by porkbarrel politics and small whiny communities inflicting damage on the greater good (looking at you, USMC). That it's now the only game in town does not absolve the program of its many sins, nor make it a model worth emulating in the future.

The whole thing was stupid. There was no other choice after Lockheed was picked. Canada choice was made. They should never had even bothered to say we should have competition. There was no other choice and their hasn't been for 20 years. To say other wise is just dumb. Everyone knew it, even JT did....but hoped he could skate.

 

[dapaterson]

The initial refusal to exercise the option to purchase through the JSF MoU was made well, well before the 2015 election.

The inability of the RCAF leadership to carry it across the finish line then was interesting to watch. Fighter jocks, having seen tac and strat lift, and medium/ heavy helos acquired quickly and easily, decided they didn't have to do their homework.

 

[Spencer100]

The initial refusal to exercise the option to purchase through the JSF MoU was made well, well before the 2015 election.

The inability of the RCAF leadership to carry it across the finish line then was interesting to watch. Fighter jocks, having seen tac and strat lift, and medium/ heavy helos acquired quickly and easily, decided they didn't have to do their homework.

Sure but what homework was really need? Here is the jet, you really have no other choice. And there was truty no other choice. Yes Tory government did chicken out but would have move back after the election. It's was just repeat of No helicopter. Same out come.

 

[CBH99]

Sure but what homework was really need? Here is the jet, you really have no other choice. And there was truty no other choice. Yes Tory government did chicken out but would have move back after the election. It's was just repeat of No helicopter. Same out come.

Canada DID technically have a choice, as there were a few options out there that would have given us a fresh fighter force & Canadians would have been happy with. (As happy as the mainstream media would allow them to be, I suppose...)

But only one option when it came to a 5th gen fighter, and a platform that will be upgraded fairly often for the next few decades...and with that in mind, the F-35 was the only game in town.


JT just talked himself into a corner when the election came about by promising not to buy the F-35, only to turn around and buy 23 more airframes than what the CPC initially had on order

(As usual, our dithering actually worked out to be beneficial in the end in terms of product maturity. We are kind of like a Mr. Bean episode in this regards, and not just on this project!)

 

[Good2Golf]

The initial refusal to exercise the option to purchase through the JSF MoU was made well, well before the 2015 election.

The inability of the RCAF leadership to carry it across the finish line then was interesting to watch. Fighter jocks, having seen tac and strat lift, and medium/ heavy helos acquired quickly and easily, decided they didn't have to do their homework.

…ah, so now people are saying it’s the generals making the decision?

I’ll stick with “What is hot potato tossing by politicians for decades?” for $1000, Alex…

 

[dapaterson]

…ah, so now people are saying it’s the generals making the decision?

I’ll stick with “What is hot potato tossing by politicians for decades?” for $1000, Alex…

The role of the generals is to effectively communicate to decision makers.

Bald Fonzie, his predecessor and his successor all failed to do so.

 

[childs56]

Do you have an example? I'd have no issue with another fleet that wasn't stationed in Cold lake. Also the issue to manning currently pretty much kills any notion of multi fighter fleets. We can barely keep our heads above water with one fighter fleet.

Greece, Poland, Spain, Italy, Spain, Denmark all run at least two different fighter Aircraft if not more. The amount of NATO partners that operate multi fighter fleets is almost all of them.