CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter

[Quirky]

We're still flying Tutors.

Meh, it just needs a modern escape system, everything else is very simple and reliable.

 

[Spencer100]

I’ll still be flabbergasted if they are still flying by then…

But hear me out. Wire them up for loyal wingman or one way missions?

Has Ukraine shown may be we should keep some older stuff around
And in some state of condition that they can be called upon to go at least one way?

 

[KevinB]

But hear me out. Wire them up for loyal wingman or one way missions?

Has Ukraine shown may be we should keep some older stuff around
And in some state of condition that they can be called upon to go at least one way?

I was originally thinking the airframes would be toast by then.
Honestly I wish the RCAF could speed up the F-35 acquisition to be able to donate the CF-18’s.

 

[Spencer100]

I was originally thinking the airframes would be toast by then.
Honestly I wish the RCAF could speed up the F-35 acquisition to be able to donate the CF-18’s.

at this point the timing. I think its a multitude of issues and not all RCAF. Lockheed production rates and others in the que. Plus is there not a problem with the block 4 and we are set to buy the block 4? I had read the USAF is not taking delivery of new units right now, they getting parked.

 

[KevinB]

at this point the timing. I think its a multitude of issues and not all RCAF. Lockheed production rates and others in the que. Plus is there not a problem with the block 4 and we are set to buy the block 4? I had read the USAF is not taking delivery of new units right now, they getting parked.

Parked isn’t a good term. The current DO is on hold till the software patch. The current airframe are flying but limited in terms of whether they can fly in due to the Lighting issue (ironic I think with its name)

 

[Kirkhill]

I was originally thinking the airframes would be toast by then.
Honestly I wish the RCAF could speed up the F-35 acquisition to be able to donate the CF-18’s.

If they retain the airframes with even 200 hours of life in them then they could be parked and brought out to drive like an antique car - but with no expectation of survival.

And if you wanted to push envelopes, based on good engineering practices and incorporated safety factors, you could probably make a case for putting time-expired airframes into the air on "kamikaze" missions.

 

[Spencer100]

If they retain the airframes with even 200 hours of life in them then they could be parked and brought out to drive like an antique car - but with no expectation of survival.

And if you wanted to push envelopes, based on good engineering practices and incorporated safety factors, you could probably make a case for putting time-expired airframes into the air on "kamikaze" missions.

That's was what I was thinking "kamikaze" or missile sponges for the strike package.

Parked isn’t a good term. The current DO is on hold till the software patch. The current airframe are flying but limited in terms of whether they can fly in due to the Lighting issue (ironic I think with its name)

This what I was referring to. The USAF is not taking delivery of new airframes right now.

"The planned delivery halt of new fighters loaded with Technology Refresh 3 hardware means manufacturer Lockheed Martin may have to store dozens of the planes at its main factory in Fort Worth, Texas, for much of the rest of the year, and perhaps into spring 2024."

Pentagon to halt upgraded F-35 deliveries in July amid software woes

This will be the F-35's third delivery halt in less than a year, and dozens of newly-constructed aircraft could be affected.

www.defensenews.com

 

[dapaterson]

If they retain the airframes with even 200 hours of life in them then they could be parked and brought out to drive like an antique car - but with no expectation of survival.

And if you wanted to push envelopes, based on good engineering practices and incorporated safety factors, you could probably make a case for putting time-expired airframes into the air on "kamikaze" missions.

Hey, RCAF? Good news! Those operational aircraft you can barely keep airworthy? Here's dozens more to keep operating, with no more technicians. Plus all the crypto and other items that have to be secured from those aircraft! But don't worry, pilots - it's not just the techs who win here - we'll expect you to fly these aircraft without training on them!

 

[Kirkhill]

Hey, RCAF? Good news! Those operational aircraft you can barely keep airworthy? Here's dozens more to keep operating, with no more technicians. Plus all the crypto and other items that have to be secured from those aircraft! But don't worry, pilots - it's not just the techs who win here - we'll expect you to fly these aircraft without training on them!

Or send them back to Boeing and have them put them on ice and fitted with this kit.

Boeing to convert 18 retired F-16 jet fighters into unmanned target drones for advanced pilot training

EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. – Military avionics experts at the Boeing Co. will convert 18 retired U.S. Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16 jet fighters into sophisticated manned and...

www.militaryaerospace.com

1. UNCREWED

Boeing to convert 18 retired F-16 jet fighters into unmanned target drones for advanced pilot training​

March 23, 2017
EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. – Military avionics experts at the Boeing Co. will convert 18 retired U.S. Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16 jet fighters into sophisticated manned and unmanned target drones under terms of a $24.7 million order announced Wednesday.
John Keller

 

[Kirkhill]

Marine XQ-58 Valkyries Will Be Electronic Warfare Platforms For F-35s

Kratos says its stealthy XQ-58A drones cost $6.5M each with dozens now under contract and two other secret aircraft programs underway.

www.thedrive.com

Air Force flight tests AI agents with Valkyrie drone

The Air Force on July 25 conducted a three-hour flight test of a XQ-58A Valkyrie drone that was controlled by algorithms developed by AFRL.

defensescoop.com

The Air Force last week conducted a three-hour flight test of a XQ-58A Valkyrie drone that was controlled by algorithms — a milestone that has major implications for the service’s “collaborative combat aircraft” program, the Air Force Research Lab announced Wednesday.

The event took place on July 25 near the Eglin Test and Training Complex in Florida. The artificial intelligence agents that piloted the unmanned jet were developed by AFRL’s autonomous air combat operations team, according to a release.

Training will be required, no doubt. But I doubt if Portage or Moose Jaw will have much to do with it.

 

[Spencer100]

Or send them back to Boeing and have them put them on ice and fitted with this kit.

Boeing to convert 18 retired F-16 jet fighters into unmanned target drones for advanced pilot training

EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. – Military avionics experts at the Boeing Co. will convert 18 retired U.S. Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16 jet fighters into sophisticated manned and...

www.militaryaerospace.com

That kind was my point.

OT....are we in one of those nexus change points in warfare? IE gun powder, the launch HMS Dreadnought, the machine gun?

Will drones and AI be the change? And these manned planes be Polish Calvary going out to meet the tanks of Wehrmacht?

 

[KevinB]

That kind was my point.

OT....are we in one of those nexus change points in warfare? IE gun powder, the launch HMS Dreadnought, the machine gun?

Will drones and AI be the change? And these manned planes be Polish Calvary going out to meet the tanks of Wehrmacht?

Skynet…

 

[OldSolduer]

Skynet…

AND Arnold is getting up there in years.....

 

[YZT580]

Skynet…

That kind was my point.

OT....are we in one of those nexus change points in warfare? IE gun powder, the launch HMS Dreadnought, the machine gun?

Will drones and AI be the change? And these manned planes be Polish Calvary going out to meet the tanks of Wehrmacht?

If the command and navigation system isn't totally self-contained with no reliance upon GPS or external control or even monitoring any drone can be spoofed, decoyed or diverted. Worse case scenario is capture of control and returned to sender. The air war in Ukraine has shown a number of these events as well.

 

[CBH99]

Meh, it just needs a modern escape system, everything else is very simple and reliable.

Well that's great for when the History network calls & is looking for a flying example to use in a historical documentary...

 

[Kirkhill]

If the command and navigation system isn't totally self-contained with no reliance upon GPS or external control or even monitoring any drone can be spoofed, decoyed or diverted. Worse case scenario is capture of control and returned to sender. The air war in Ukraine has shown a number of these events as well.

Points taken but...

We are talking about getting additional benefit out of a time-expired capability without putting pilots at risk and while minimizing operating and maintenance expenses.

Conceivably an adversary could end up facing, instead of a squadron of 10 F-35s a force of 10 F35s with 60 to 70 F18s flying screen or in trail as trucks and all capable of launching missiles and long range new-build UAVs.

Those $100,000,000 aircraft have all been written down to zero dollars and so can be treated as disposable, because that was their fate in any event.

....

With respect to bad things happening to good kit. As you note, these things happen.
Has it been worth the capture of Storm Shadow technology by the Russians to help the Ukrainians in their efforts to push the Russians out.

....

When clients ask me about patenting "secret" processes my advice to them is don't bother.
Your competitors will discover your secrets sooner or later.
The best solution is to flood the market with your solution today and use all those lovely profits to develop tomorrow's solution.
Run faster that your competitors.

 

[KevinB]

When clients ask me about patenting "secret" processes my advice to them is don't bother.
Your competitors will discover your secrets sooner or later.
The best solution is to flood the market with your solution today and use all those lovely profits to develop tomorrow's solution.
Run faster that your competitors.

I don’t think that warfighting and business are good analogies.
For business you should Patent certain things, because it gives you a time frame to develop the next product. Guard trade secrets dearly, however as they aren’t readily discernible.

Unlike business, war fighting involves life and death, and it behooves Governments to give there best to protect the Nation and the lives of their military who put their lives in front of others.

 

[armrdsoul77]

 

[Quirky]

Looks expensive.

 

[Kirkhill]

I don’t think that warfighting and business are good analogies.
For business you should Patent certain things, because it gives you a time frame to develop the next product. Guard trade secrets dearly, however as they aren’t readily discernible.

Unlike business, war fighting involves life and death, and it behooves Governments to give there best to protect the Nation and the lives of their military who put their lives in front of others.

Kev, if you don't accept that the enemy will discover all your secrets then, in my opinion, you have already lost.
The best you can hope for is to buy time. I think that is particularly true when you are chucking your secret hardware at them.