CFHA Residential Housing Unit (RHU)-old PMQ [MERGED]

[PMedMoe]

Did you get a copy of this when you moved in?

CFHA - Conditions of Occupancy

 

[HItorMiss]

Found in that text

2. An occupant of a married quarter is not a tenant and has no legal estate or interest in the premises. The various provincial Landlord and Tenant Acts do not apply to married quarters. The occupant is not a leaseholder.

However nowhere does is state in that entire document that I could see that he could not have his truck in his garage driveway nor that the Base Commander has any right to the property

Also that statement finishes with

Consequently, the occupant can not and shall not pass the premises to others upon vacating. Such practice shall result in immediate cancellation of the Conditions of Occupancy to the existing occupant.

So I am not sure it applies either...

 

[GAP]

Further to what PMoe attached....

Parking
45. The occupant shall ensure that their automobile and those of their dependants and guests are not parked in such a way as to hinder fire-fighting equipment and, in winter, snow removal equipment. Married quarters driveways or other RHU properties shall not be used for storing non-roadworthy vehicles or other bulky items.

46. Recreational vehicles, such as trailers and boats, shall not be parked on RHU property. It is understood that, on occasion, it will be necessary for the occupant to park recreational vehicles near their home for short periods of time. In these cases, the occupant shall obtain the prior written approval of the HSC. Parking or driving of any vehicle on grassed areas is not permitted.

and

Temporary Automobile Shelters
51. The occupant may erect commercially available automobile shelters with prior written approval of the HSC. The shelter shall not extend beyond the lot line. Municipal by-laws shall be adhered to and shelters shall be structurally sound and in good condition. The occupant shall repair, at their own expense, any damage caused by the installation of such structures.

 

[HItorMiss]

Gap none of those apply in this case.... not to my reckoning anyway

 

[George Wallace]

The Regulations are there.  If you don't read them, then it is your fault if you get caught up in these types of cases. 

BulletMagnet

You may be surprised, but the Base Comd CAN inspect your PMQ should the need arise.  It so seldom does, so no one thinks much about it.  PMQs are not "Private Property", and never have been. They are DND property.......now managed by CFHA.

17. HSC staff shall be permitted to inspect an RHU for appraisals and other types of required inspection. The HSC shall be responsible for advising the occupant with the reason for the inspection and an approximate date and time of the inspection. The occupant shall allow access to their RHU by members of the Canadian Forces, civilian employees of the Government of Canada and CFHA contractors, in the performance of their duties. Except in an emergency, at least 24 hours’ notice shall be given to the occupant.

 

[PMedMoe]

Gap none of those apply in this case.... not to my reckoning anyway

Really?

The occupant shall ensure that their automobile and those of their dependants and guests are not parked in such a way as to hinder fire-fighting equipment and, in winter, snow removal equipment.

and

Married quarters driveways or other RHU properties shall not be used for storing non-roadworthy vehicles or other bulky items.

If I'm reading this correctly, the non-plated, non-insured (and thereby non-roadworthy) vehicle was parked in front of the rented garage (and not inside), thereby potentially hindering fire-fighting and snow removal equipment.  This is why I asked if the OP had received a copy.

I would have at least expected a notice, however, if it's in the occupancy conditions, I don't know that they're required to give you any.

 

[PuckChaser]

Did you just have the driveability portion of the insurance removed, and have the vehicle protected from theft and fire? If so, the vehicle was technically insured and therefore CFHA should not have moved it.

 

[63 Delta]

Bullet Magnet: Thanks for the support.

PMedMoe: Thanks for the link. As for receiving a copy, I have never to my knowledge  received a copy (and I have checked my files, as I have my original signed copy of my application). Second, I rented my row garage a year after my PMQ, and was never notified or read anything about unplated/uninsured vehicles being in front of the row garage. It completely defeated my reason for getting the garage.

PuckChaser: As for insurance, I did have fire/theft on my truck, was paying for my whole tour, while my truck was impounded then destroyed. Also come to think of it, it was plated, just not registered. Should have been BC plates.

So, here comes to my next points. Every year I have to pay my taxes to Ontario, as according to them I live here. So if I live in Ontario and pay taxes, shouldn't the laws of Ontario apply to me? If not then the PMQs should be some king of Federal Reserve with no provincial taxes. I mean really, I pay the taxes but don't get the protection of the laws? Not really fair. And I know the next argument to that. Your in the military and fall under different rules and laws. Sure, when it comes to my job; when it comes to my house I don't believe the military should have any say.

Also. What about the fact that my truck had plates, a VIN number, and was parked in front of my garage. No effort was made to contact me for the 6 months it was pared there. No warning system? No effort to contact the owner? It was towed in Mid October so posed no Snow removal problems, and in no way impeded any fire equipment.

Another problem I have is how CFHA gets treated like it is above the law. CFHA should have to follow the tenancy act. If they don't, what laws govern them? A mish mash of Base Standing orders, and federal bureaucrat mumbo jumbo, none of which has been ratified by the tax payers? Hardly fair. I know you'll say, "then you should move out on to the economy". I am. This month. But when I moved here as a young trooper with base pay, and my wife had no job, I had no choice. 

 

[Franko]

In my opinion this would be like your CoC inspecting you PMQ like they do the rooms in the shacks. They cannot simply because it is your property and they have no right to inspect seize or in anyway touch your personally effects on your property.

Sorry, but you've been mislead.

I, along with a few other Snr NCOs and a SSM, have inspected one PMQ. It is rare, but it can happen under the wrong circumstances.

As to HULK_011's query, you may have a case if they did not provide fair warning to you prior to them towing it. Also you may have a case against the towing company (Red's Towing by any chance?) for not securing it properly and taking proactive steps to ensure that your vehicle wouldn't be damaged. They do have insurance...or at least are supposed to. I'd go after them as well.

Have you talked to a lawyer?

Regards

 

[dapaterson]

Hence why it's move, then beer.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Im currently living in Petawawa, and have a major disagreement with a CFHA policy/action they have taken. I have the option of putting a claim against the crown, but would like to know all my options. In particular if anybody has sued, is suing, wants to sue, or if it is even possible. I assume it must be possible since CFHA is a crown corporation, and not part of the military.

I assume that you have completed all the steps of the Occupant Complaint Resolution Process and have not received satisfaction.  Since you are aware that you can make a claim against the crown, you are probably already familiar with DAOD 7004-0, Claims By or Against the Crown and Ex gratia Payments and DAOD 7004-1, Claims and Ex gratia Procedures.  For your info, CFHA is not a “crown corporation” but is a “Special Operating Agency” in the Department of National Defence; there is a significant difference.

Making a claim against the crown is a usual step in most legal proceedings by federal employees seeking monetary compensation from a government entity.  Unless, there is some specific reason why you wish to sue the Minister of National Defence through his CFHA (apology for my facetiousness) then your best bet may be to see if a claim against the crown will recompense you for the loss of the vehicle.  If that is not the case, perhaps you can seek a redress of grievance.  If your intent is to sue, then, as was previously mentioned, the best advice you can get here is to see a lawyer.  Yes, they will charge for their time and may even not be successful.

On the face of the scant details you provided about the situation, IMHO, you may not have a valid “legal” claim.  Of course, there are almost always details that can modify a situation.  My suggestion would be to first gather all possible documentary evidence.  Since there are few details in the “Conditions of Occupancy” document about the procedures that they would take when dealing with any infraction of the rules, you should attempt to get from the CFHA copies of any internal SOPs that detail how they do these things.  It may require an Access to Information Request.  If they strayed from those procedures it may strengthen your case. 


Edited to remove the final suggestion for the "last ditch" manoeuver.

 

[REDinstaller]

And it never hurts to have a friend that knows how to do drywall, especially the taping and mudding.

 

[captloadie]

In most areas in Canada, house prices are either stagnate or falling at this time. Most people would be better off waiting a while longer, as housing prices will be coming down (see the other thread on HEA for examples).

For Kingston, now is the worst time to consider buying a house. Posting season always ends up inflating prices, as people desperate to find a house pay more to get what they want. You should look around now, find a few house that have been for sale since the spring and wait until late fall to see if they are still available. It is almost guaranteed the seller will be getting desperate and will have dropped the price by then.

Also, either get a good realtor, or someone who really knows Kingston, because there are some great deals on houses, in areas that you wouldn't/shouldn't live and will never be able to sell.

 

[captloadie]

Could the lack of notice have been due to the fact there was no way to track who owned the vehicle? It had unregistered out of province plates. Since we all have started speculating anyway, I would proffer that the towing company has an agreement with the base that allows them to cruise through around the base looking for vehicles breaching different base policies (parking, missing registration, etc.) They probably only need to phone the MPs, request permission to tow, and voila, your car is gone.

You probably won't get anywhere with CFHA or making a claim against the Crown, but you might have a strong case against the company who towed your vehicle. It sounds like they did not do their due diligence before disposing of the vehicle.

 

[ArmyRick]

See a Lawyer. At least there you will get an informed answer to your main question. Get all the documentation you can.

Your obviously p*ssed off.

Yes you pay taxes in Ontario but that does not entitle to you all the benefits and protection offered by the Ontario government concerning provincial matters.
One example is Ontario Health Card, you have to be a resident of Ontario (if born outside the province) for a certain period of time before your entitled to one.

Your not interested in opinions so I won't offer one.

 

[armyvern]

The Crown (nor DND or the CF) also does not pay property taxes for the value of the Qs or land they sit on into provincial coffers either as `private property` homeowners and landlords must do for their properties. Those property taxes then afford them (and tenants) certain protections; not necessarily so the case with Qs.

__________

Mid-October is the timeframe when the SNICs will be out staking their orange wood stakes into the ground for the upcoming snowfalls to denote fire hydrants, and noting impediments to snow removal etc etc. That co-incides with the towing of the vehicle. I`d imagine that`s what found the truck reported originally. Now, most of the garages for rental in Pet are not single, but are rather laid out in an attached row ... making it a common parking lot (rather than a personal driveway) directly in front of them that will need to be plowed out to allow access into the gargages should there be a fire during the winter. No, Captloadie there are not towtrucks prowling through the Qs in Pet seeking with an eye for financial gain, then reporting, then towing abandonned or unroadworthy vehicles with any type of sanction (official or unofficial) from CFHA or the BComd.

I`m still surprised though that the truck was disposed of with no notification to the owner. Was there identifying documents in the dash? Or did it all link back to BC? If so, that would suck considering that Ontario law says:

New Residents
If you are a new resident in Ontario and have a valid driver's licence from another province, state or country, you can use it for up to 60 days after you move to Ontario. If you want to keep driving in Ontario, you must get an Ontario driver's licence. You must use your Ontario licence when you are issued one. New Ontario residents have 30 days before they have to register their vehicles and get Ontario licence plates and vehicle permit. Click here for more information on Getting an Ontario Driver's Licence or Licensing a Vehicle in Ontario.

But, that may be the only way to fight this battle. If the towing truck couldn`t trace it to you by way of documents and addy in the vehicle, & CFHA can not provide them your name as the renter of the gargage it was in front of by way of Privacy Act, then perhaps CFHA could have slipped you a note into your mailbox stating that they had towed a vehicle from in front of your garage ... just like they do when dogs bark too loud, when people don`t mow their lawns etc etc. They could have at least made an attempt to notify. That`s the only route I see with a valid leg to stand on.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If the towing company also has a salvage yard, there is a possibility that the vehicle, if it was in any kind of half decent shape, wasn't destroyed. While they may have indicated such, they may have sold it at auction or simply safetied it and put it back out there. Some of the more unscroupulous yards seem to have no problem gaining ownership and title to any vehicle they wish. A VIN check with MOT and\or CARFAX may turn up it's real status.

 

[Pusser]

Costs to consider on purchase of a home (a non-comprehensive list):

Land transfer tax

Lawyer's fees

Hookup fees for utilities

Security deposits for utilities

Window blinds and curtains

Cleaning of the house

Appliances

Yard tools (lawn mower, snow blower etc)

Furniture

Refinishing/repair of house (paint, new carpets etc)

Moving costs (movers, or rent a truck and buy pizza and beer for friends.  Voice of experience: Move first, beer later)


They can add up to anywhere from $5-15K, depending on what you want.

Keep in mind that several of these costs are covered by the CF.  Talk to your OR and/or CFIRP.

As for moving, I recommend (from experience) you find yourself a local mover who charges by the hour.  Compared to renting a vehicle and providing beer and pizza to all your friends (and you will only find out who your true friends are AFTER you ask them to help you move), paying $75-100 an hour for two guys who bring their own truck is a bargain.

 

[REDinstaller]

Keep in mind that several of these costs are covered by the CF.  Talk to your OR and/or CFIRP.

Only if you are still in the 2 year window of being posted to a new base. Otherwise its out of pocket.

 

[blacktriangle]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Would it be a good idea to go talk to SISIP about this sort of thing? I wouldn't be buying until fall at the earliest but I am starting to plan long term. I'm currently on a restricted posting but I was told that restriction would be lifted once I am given permission to move out.

I religiously put the majority of my pay into savings while living in shacks. My logic is that if with my savings each month and the money I would no longer spend on R&Q combined I could get a mortgage and still eat and cut my hair, it might be better than living in a room with 3 other guys and being ration strength. My money just sits in my bank anyways. Is 20 % a fair downpayment?

For those that know Kingston a bit, could anyone help me out? I keep hearing of all these "bad" areas where I shouldn't buy. From what I can gather they tend to be north of Princess St. What about the subdivision north of base? I think it's called Greenwood park? It looked nice enough when I came through on the way here.

Is it generally hard to re-sell a small (read 2 bedroom) house? What if it is almost new?

(Oh, and if anyone has any in depth advice feel free to PM me, I hope I haven't derailed this thread too much)


Thanks in advance.