CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[calculus]

It is, approximately, in the same class as the Griffon.

Roughly the same class, but superior to the Griffon in all respects.

H175 M General characteristics

• Crew: 2
• Capacity: 12-18 pax
• Length: 18.06 m (59 ft 3 in) rotors running

15.68 m (51 ft) nose to tail rotor disc

• Height: 5.34 m (17 ft 6 in) to tail rotor tip
• Empty weight: 4,603 kg (10,148 lb)
• Gross weight: 7,500 kg (16,535 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 7,800 kg (17,196 lb) <a href="Airbus Helicopters H175 - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>56<span>]</span></a>
• Fuel capacity: 2,710 L (720 US gal; 600 imp gal) / 2,136 kg (4,709 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67E turboshaft engines with dual channel FADEC, 1,324 kW (1,776 hp) each for take-off

1,227 kW (1,645 hp) maximum continuous power

• Main rotor diameter: 14.8 m (48 ft 7 in)
• Main rotor area: 172 m2 (1,850 sq ft)

Performance

• Maximum speed: 315 km/h (196 mph, 170 kn)
• Cruise speed: 300 km/h (190 mph, 160 kn)
• Range: 1,259 km (782 mi, 680 nmi)
• Service ceiling: 6,000 m (20,000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 18.288 m/s (3,600.0 ft/min)

More here:

Airbus: H175M could match Canadian defense ambitions

Airbus Helicopters believes its H175 is “very well positioned” to meet potential Canadian defense requirements, and says it is willing to invest and bring more work to the country.

verticalmag.com

 

[CBH99]

Roughly the same class, but superior to the Griffon in all respects.

H175 M General characteristics

• Crew: 2
• Capacity: 12-18 pax
• Length: 18.06 m (59 ft 3 in) rotors running

15.68 m (51 ft) nose to tail rotor disc

• Height: 5.34 m (17 ft 6 in) to tail rotor tip
• Empty weight: 4,603 kg (10,148 lb)
• Gross weight: 7,500 kg (16,535 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 7,800 kg (17,196 lb) <a href="Airbus Helicopters H175 - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>56<span>]</span></a>
• Fuel capacity: 2,710 L (720 US gal; 600 imp gal) / 2,136 kg (4,709 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67E turboshaft engines with dual channel FADEC, 1,324 kW (1,776 hp) each for take-off

1,227 kW (1,645 hp) maximum continuous power

• Main rotor diameter: 14.8 m (48 ft 7 in)
• Main rotor area: 172 m2 (1,850 sq ft)

Performance

• Maximum speed: 315 km/h (196 mph, 170 kn)
• Cruise speed: 300 km/h (190 mph, 160 kn)
• Range: 1,259 km (782 mi, 680 nmi)
• Service ceiling: 6,000 m (20,000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 18.288 m/s (3,600.0 ft/min)

More here:

Airbus: H175M could match Canadian defense ambitions

Airbus Helicopters believes its H175 is “very well positioned” to meet potential Canadian defense requirements, and says it is willing to invest and bring more work to the country.

verticalmag.com

I really like the idea of the H175 replacing the Griffon!!


That being said, I think it's probably wise to watch the Blackhawk replacement program as it progresses south of the border.

For the same kind of reasons we all tend to agree that buying a 5th gen fighter is in our interest, the same might be said for holding out and buying a next gen rotorcraft


As cool as an CH-175 would look in CAF chopper colours, it might be the equivalent of buying yesterday's helicopter tomorrow by the time contracts need to be signed.

 

[suffolkowner]

if we go MV-75 might be a case for a hi-low mix
MV-75 assembled in Montreal
H-175 assembled in Fort Erie
but we are already likely getting 60s to throw in the mix

 

[Halifax Tar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2041684284528881831

 

[CBH99]

Oh...my...flippin'...goodness...


The CAF STILL HAS NOT taken delivery of all 28 aircraft...is this true??

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Oh...my...flippin'...goodness...


The CAF STILL HAS NOT taken delivery of all 28 aircraft...is this true??

My understanding is that they have now all been delivered, but I don’t pay attention day-to-day on the status of the fleet.

I am not saying that there are not problems with the Cyclone problem, but, I have also found it useful over the decades to carefully and independently fact check what Canadian defence journalists print. They quite often either have the details wrong or draw inaccurate conclusions from the data they do have. Sometimes, the missing bit of context is classified information, so it is difficult to publicly refute or or correct the record.

 

[Baz]

Oh...my...flippin'...goodness...


The CAF STILL HAS NOT taken delivery of all 28 aircraft...is this true??

According to CH-148 Cyclone procurement project :

July 2025
A total of 27 Cyclone helicopters have been delivered to Canada since June 2015, with one aircraft (STALKER-22) having been tragically lost at sea in April 2020.

 

[Mick]

I can't post the article due to site guidelines, but I've read that the final (28th) CH148 was delivered in July 2025 (27 now in service).

 

[KevinB]

if we go MV-75 might be a case for a hi-low mix
MV-75 assembled in Montreal
H-175 assembled in Fort Erie
but we are already likely getting 60s to throw in the mix

The odds of Bell allowing MV-75 production outside US is infinitely smaller than LocMart restarting the C-5 line...

Bell-Textron has Mirabel as a Commercial only facility.
Which if you follow the differences between the UH-1Y Venom and the CH-146 Griffon you can see there is a LARGE difference between the airframes.
Canada will/can not buy enough MV-75 even if they replaced every single rotary wing airframe in the GoC combined inventories to make that a viable option for Bell.

 

[Maxman1]

According to CH-148 Cyclone procurement project :

Is there a reason we can't order another to replace the lost one?

 

[KevinB]

Is there a reason we can't order another to replace the lost one?

Because that model is not made anymore. It is legit an ORPHAN.

 

[MilEME09]

Is there a reason we can't order another to replace the lost one?

probably because we A) cant(no production line still going) B) Dont want to (its a lemon) or C) all of the above

 

[KevinB]

probably because we A) cant(no production line still going) B) Dont want to (its a lemon) or C) all of the above

I don't think it is a lemon -- but the CAF model isn't in production anymore, and the new ones don't have folding tails (which is apparently a fairly big thing for both production and fitting in the hangars on the ships).

It suffers from the fact that the RCAF ended up with an orphan as the buy wasn't big enough to self sustain, and folks either went to the EH-101/Merlin for a medium/large MH bird, or to the MH-60 series. The SuperHawk never got traction, and everyone has lost out on it, it basically forced Sik being offloaded to LocMart - and LocMart has been trying to mimimize damage on it ever since.

Canada is not a large enough market to be an early adopter.

 

[Baz]

Is there a reason we can't order another to replace the lost one?

What @KevinB said, with the amplification that the Cyclone is a heavily adopted S-92, and the current production is S-92A, to civilian spec only.

It’s not a lemon, from the purely “on paper” capability it may be the best there is, but having the “best” is expensive. Especially when you’re a sole operator.

I hope there are some real force structure studies being done in the RCN which are being passed to the RCAF requirements shops, and some money is being programmed to action those requirements.

 

[Maxman1]

Because that model is not made anymore. It is legit an ORPHAN.

probably because we A) cant(no production line still going) B) Dont want to (its a lemon) or C) all of the above

In that case, perhaps a replacement is in order.

 

[Baz]

In that case, perhaps a replacement is in order.

Are we doing this again?

As I stated above, many things are shifting in the RCN’s force structure. Perhaps a proper evaluation of Canada’s Naval Aviation requirements should be the first order of business.

By the way, the det structure which determined the number purchased no longer exists due to ships being paid off, and won’t in the future.To my knowledge, that det structure (which has never been reached) has not yet been changed. However, it is quite likely it doesn’t require 28 aircraft.

 

[Maxman1]

VOR rates suggest 28, now 27, isn't enough for operations and doesn't account for attrition.

At some point, we'll have to admit the Cyclone didn't work out and pick something like the Sea Hawk or Merlin to replace it.

 

[Baz]

I’ve never seen VOR as a measurement for aircraft (I had to look up what it means), the measure used is aircraft availability.

There are some pretty strong indications that is a community and programmatic problem, not an aircraft problem.

It’s impossible to say at this point that 27 or 28 aircraft is not enough, because (for various reasons), the operational demand isn’t there. They RCN is itself in a period of transition and it’s not clear what it looks like coming out the other side:

• what does the final state of the Canadian Task Group look like and what are the aviation effects required
• what is the best employment for manned MH (if any) and the resulting flying rates
• what is the Protecteur Class Air Dets role, manning, and number of crews and aicraft
• do we want an embarked capability on the HDWs, and if so, to do what? Should it have a different airframe?
• should we admit failure of the maintenance program of the Cyclone and try to fix it before throwing the baby out with the bath water?

None of these questions have been answered, so I think your statement is somewhat premature. Just saying we have to replace it is setting us up to spend a whole lot of money to have the same problems.

It is absolutely the case that we bit of more than we can chew and should never have written “the best MH spec in the world.” However, that was the same for the EH-101… ours was not a Merlin or the Italian version, and arguably we’d of had the same problems.

Fortunately, the people (I know a bunch of them) that are trying to figure it out don’t spend their days going around and around the same discussion on Army.ca.

 

[KevinB]

Available Aircraft and Blade Hour Cost…

I’m sure MH has more subsets, as so does TF aviation, but at the end of the day an easy metric is your availability number and it’s loaded cost per hour aloft.

 

[Baz]

In that case, perhaps a replacement is in order.

I happened to stumble across a picture of PP5 probably from when we were buying them: