- Reaction score
- 16,274
- Points
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What? You don't like having drums of Jet B lashed to your deck?
Continental Defence Corvette
- Thread starter Underway
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 22,139
- Points
- 1,010
Yup. It is called “data link”.
- Reaction score
- 5,952
- Points
- 1,160
And what does the CDC do with that information if it has no ASW helicopter to attack the submarine? ASROC? Do you want to get that close to the sub? P-8? Might be an option off the coast of Vancouver Island or the Gulf of St-Lawrence, but what would be the response time to get up to the ice edge? Or is the plan to provide persistent top cover to the CDC's up there?
- Reaction score
- 4,432
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We don’t know. I don’t think CRCN knows, even though the whole thing is his idea.
We don’t and won’t have a big enough navy to build single purpose or limited purpose combatants.
- Reaction score
- 2,732
- Points
- 1,090
does it need to go underwater? Could it be an unmanned surface vessel?
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 4,061
- Points
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No. Yes.
Calls for help from someone or thing that can carry out the kill , and steers the hell away from the threat in the meantime.
- Reaction score
- 11,855
- Points
- 1,160
So a Mk48 torpedo weighs 1676 kg
It is a tube 5.8 m long and 0.53 m in diameter.
Two of them weigh 3352 kg or 3.352 tonnes.
Apparently a block of styrofoam 5.663 m3 (5.663 m x 1 m x 1 m) will support a load of 5 tonnes.
That would allow 1.65 tonnes of residual buoyancy for structure, propulsion, electronics and ancillaries.
Take two aluminum tubes of 6m length and 0.53 m diameter. Lay them side by side and weld them together. There is your core rigid structure. Insert in a mold and layer on the polyfoam. Sculpt to final form and coat.
Add necessary propulsion and steering gear, comms gear, fuel and a tank of compressed air.
Insert a Mk 48 into each tube.
.....
How Polycraft makes their boats.
.....
The Rattler USV, an autonomous RIB being tested and deployed by the RN as part of its Bastion strategy. It conducted a 500 mile escort mission the length of Britain while controlled from land.
dronelife.com
.....
The Excalibur XLUUV, an autonomous sub with novel navigation systems on board that was recently tested in British waters while being controlled from Australia.
www.royalnavy.mod.uk
www.royalnavy.mod.uk
It is a tube 5.8 m long and 0.53 m in diameter.
Two of them weigh 3352 kg or 3.352 tonnes.
Apparently a block of styrofoam 5.663 m3 (5.663 m x 1 m x 1 m) will support a load of 5 tonnes.
That would allow 1.65 tonnes of residual buoyancy for structure, propulsion, electronics and ancillaries.
Take two aluminum tubes of 6m length and 0.53 m diameter. Lay them side by side and weld them together. There is your core rigid structure. Insert in a mold and layer on the polyfoam. Sculpt to final form and coat.
Add necessary propulsion and steering gear, comms gear, fuel and a tank of compressed air.
Insert a Mk 48 into each tube.
.....
How Polycraft makes their boats.
.....
The Rattler USV, an autonomous RIB being tested and deployed by the RN as part of its Bastion strategy. It conducted a 500 mile escort mission the length of Britain while controlled from land.
Inside the Royal Navy’s “Rattler” Revolution: Uncrewed Vessels Escort Warships from 500 Miles Away
Royal Navy tests “Rattler” uncrewed vessels in a milestone sea trial, escorting warships from 500 miles away in a step toward a Hybrid Navy.
dronelife.com
.....
The Excalibur XLUUV, an autonomous sub with novel navigation systems on board that was recently tested in British waters while being controlled from Australia.
Quantum technology trialled on Royal Navy uncrewed submarine XV Excalibur
Quantum technology was deployed on an uncrewed submarine in a milestone trial for the Royal Navy.
www.royalnavy.mod.uk
AUKUS exercise sees Royal Navy uncrewed submarine controlled from across the world
The Royal Navy successfully tested the ability to communicate with Experimental Vessel (XV) Excalibur, the Royal Navy’s Extra Large Uncrewed Underwater Vehicle (XLUUV), while submerged on the other side of the world.
www.royalnavy.mod.uk
- Reaction score
- 8,928
- Points
- 1,140
Handy isn't the same as necessary, and money spent there is money not available to be spent where it is needed.
Borrowed money or not, it adds an opportunity cost. Every dollar spent on an unnecessary hangar is a dollar not spent on needed things, like training, personnel costs, or spares to keep the ships running.
You don't need a hangar kitted out for sustaining an air det at sea for those tasks. A multi-mission bay for UAVs, smaller and cheaper than a MH hangar, is more than enough for the task. Nobody has argued against a big(ish) bay for those sorts of uses...
You are aware that the idea is to not blindly stumble into submarines right? The CDC isnt going to be tasked to just "go find subs" without other int sources backing the mission, and the appropriate support also added for the task. This isn't 1942...
- Reaction score
- 22,139
- Points
- 1,010
- Reaction score
- 11,855
- Points
- 1,160
The next step up from Rattler sized USVs.
thedefensepost.com
4x Mk70 PDS launchers
16x SM6 or
16x Tomahawk MST or
16x ASROCs or
64x ESSM
Bigger Than Most Patrol Boats: US Launches 48-Meter Unmanned Vessel
Florida’s Magnet Defense has rolled out a 48-meter unmanned surface vessel built for long-duration missions beyond typical warship limits.
thedefensepost.com
4x Mk70 PDS launchers
16x SM6 or
16x Tomahawk MST or
16x ASROCs or
64x ESSM
- Reaction score
- 11,855
- Points
- 1,160
ZeroUSV cuts first aluminium on first-of-class Oceanus17 USV - European Security & Defence
ZeroUSV announced on 8 December 2025 that it has started construction of the Oceanus17: a new large, ultra-long-distance, high-payload USV.
euro-sd.com
ZERO USV is a new uncrewed surface vessel (USV) – the 12 metre Oceanus12 class
Zero USV is a new collaboration bringing more than 50 years’ experience into a unique new class of uncrewed surface vessels (USVs) – the 12 metre Oceanus12 class.
Oceanus vessels are being considered for Bastion.
- Reaction score
- 1,291
- Points
- 1,010
My main concern still remains planning a ship around a system that doesn't exist.
However, when I was at GDMS, I tried to make interest in creating a system of system that would match this use case. It's primary purpose was to augment the embarked helicopter, and to get sensors on station before the helicopter launched to develop the picture, but I think it has applicability here.
The problem was a lot of companies only robustly study things they have a RFP for, and since they didn't, they didn't.
First, the requirement as I see it:
The proposed solution relies on cheap expendable UAVs and consists of three pieces:
All of the search stores are based on A-Size sonos. All of them would sacrifice sensor performance for weight, size, and cost. Performance would be mitigated by being able to approach the target closer.
The current generation of sonobuoys would all be able to be carried by ESFK. They would independantly fly out to the search area, and then shed the wings to deploy. This would enable both active and passive acoustic search.
Coyote would come in the following variations, all as an expendable store:
The launch system would be able to easily load and launch either configuration. No recovery system would be required.
I think the cost of Coyote could be kept in the same order of magnitude as a DIFAR sono. It could be a joint system, as the US Army is already trialling it, and it is air droppable by Cyclone and P-8. It is already fielded with the NOAA with an atmospheric package.
However, when I was at GDMS, I tried to make interest in creating a system of system that would match this use case. It's primary purpose was to augment the embarked helicopter, and to get sensors on station before the helicopter launched to develop the picture, but I think it has applicability here.
The problem was a lot of companies only robustly study things they have a RFP for, and since they didn't, they didn't.
First, the requirement as I see it:
- very small footprint
- data largely usable by existing ship's systems and crew
- over the horizon ASW search and localize
- over the horizon ASW attack (if it's any closer you're already dead)
- over the horizon EO/IR
- over the horizon ESM, especially SIGINT
The proposed solution relies on cheap expendable UAVs and consists of three pieces:
- use of the Expendable sonobuoy flight kit with aerodynamically assisted sonobuoy separation (I'll refer to it by ESFK) patent (I tried to get GDMS to buy it)
- Raytheon Coyote
- VL-ASROC
All of the search stores are based on A-Size sonos. All of them would sacrifice sensor performance for weight, size, and cost. Performance would be mitigated by being able to approach the target closer.
The current generation of sonobuoys would all be able to be carried by ESFK. They would independantly fly out to the search area, and then shed the wings to deploy. This would enable both active and passive acoustic search.
Coyote would come in the following variations, all as an expendable store:
- EO, hopefully EO and low light EO could be combined.
- IR
- MAD
- Comms Relay and ESM. This would be enabled using an inexpensive software defined radio (SDR) such as the Lime Microsystems LMS-8001. It has a potential frequency coverage of 100kHz up to 12 GHz. Comms relay would be accomplished by rebroadcasting unto the same band. For instance, sonobuoys could be received on 136-152Mhz and rebroadcast on 158-174Mhz. That would allow fitted sonobuoy receivers and processors to utilize the relay without modification. The standard antenna fit would be a tunable VHF-UHF antenna. The antenna group would be swappable for RWR, which would proably only indicate presence, not direction.
The launch system would be able to easily load and launch either configuration. No recovery system would be required.
I think the cost of Coyote could be kept in the same order of magnitude as a DIFAR sono. It could be a joint system, as the US Army is already trialling it, and it is air droppable by Cyclone and P-8. It is already fielded with the NOAA with an atmospheric package.
IKnowNothing
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
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To be honest I kind of figured the ASW aspect of these was going to be a "nice to have" additional node in the net so to speak, that are a complementary boost to the overall ASW plan but not a crucial part of it.
To this layman it seemed like our arctic/naval sovereignty plan lacked any muscle prior to a shooting war. Subs and airstrikes can sink ships, but they're not there in the water providing an enduring presence to win the dick measuring contests you see in contested waters.
Between the proliferation of drones, tendencies to toward hybrid warfare, and the armaments of the non-major surface combatants of the Russian Northern fleet the HDW and Kingston classes were out gunned and borderline defenseless for any sort of "warm" situation, whereas the loadouts suggested for the CDC would provide overmatch against the new Ivan Papanin class, self defense anti-air against helo's from Ivan Gren's and drones from "Q" type ships, and force the Russians to send a major combatant into the arctic if they really want to flex.
To this layman it seemed like our arctic/naval sovereignty plan lacked any muscle prior to a shooting war. Subs and airstrikes can sink ships, but they're not there in the water providing an enduring presence to win the dick measuring contests you see in contested waters.
Between the proliferation of drones, tendencies to toward hybrid warfare, and the armaments of the non-major surface combatants of the Russian Northern fleet the HDW and Kingston classes were out gunned and borderline defenseless for any sort of "warm" situation, whereas the loadouts suggested for the CDC would provide overmatch against the new Ivan Papanin class, self defense anti-air against helo's from Ivan Gren's and drones from "Q" type ships, and force the Russians to send a major combatant into the arctic if they really want to flex.
- Reaction score
- 11,855
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I gather that the First Sea Lord's position is that he feels he is out of time and, as in 1939, he is looking around for the bleeding edge of technology and wondering what he can do with what is available, even if there is a considerable risk.
@Baz, you talk about expendable sonobuoys. The FSL talks about hiring oceanography companies to deploy a fleet of sensor vessels to light up the darkness.
"According to MoD, 26 companies from the UK and Europe have submitted sensor concepts, while 20 firms have proposed prototype developments.
"In the coming weeks, selected companies will advance their development work from concept to operational use, with capabilities expected to be deployed at sea next year."
The Oceanus 12 is representative of some of the USV platforms under consideration for immediate deployment.
The RN's autonomous escort is expected in the water next year.
The Proteus Rotary Wing UAS, which builds on the Fire Scout deployments in the US, is entering service.
The XV Excalibur XLUUV, which looks a lot like the Anduril Ghost Shark adopted by the RAN and the USN and is in production, is being integrated into the Shield part of Bastion.
....
I posted the MTB video because I wanted to back up the concept of autonomous torpedo boats drifting on the currents in the North Atlantic.
That same video describes how the MTBs were idears geanerated outside the chain of command and developed by civilians. They were promoted by enthusiasts and adopted in extremis by the Admiralty out of necessity. They were made, like the Mosquito, from non-strategic materials, (mahogany and plywood), by under-employed tradesmen (carpenters, joiners, cabinet and piano makers) in any available space (they only displaced 75 tons all up). They were minimally manned (crew of seven) with minimally trained reservists (yachtsmen and fishermen).
But they could carry four heavy torpedoes and working in "swarms" destroy a lot of tonnage, including what might be classified as corvettes.
These days, I believe, we could float dozens, if not hundreds of uninhabited, self-righting MTBs in the Noth Atlantic and arm each one with 2 to 4 heavy torpedos like the ADCAP and Stingray instead of the lighter Mk 54 carried by helicopters and ASROC. They then become a field of self-propelled off-route mines that can be relocated and attack deep or surface targets on command. They can be laid and tended by AOPS, or CG vessels or any vessel with a flexdeck.
These types of innovations, forced on us because we have wasted decades debating how best to face this day, are changing the operating environment for subs, deepwater ships and coastal ships.
PS the Ghost Bat XXLUUV can carry the equivalent of two TEUs in free flooded chambers. They Aussies are publicly declaring thenm as mine layers. How many heavy torpedos can be carried in a 20 ft seacan?
...
Canada always seem to strive to pack as much as possible into the small number of platforms it is allowed to buy. I believe that this prematurely terminates a lot of projects because it raises complexity, often well beyond the competency of our industry, and raises costs concurrently.
Why don't we try going the other way for a change and try building a lot of small, simple platforms that are wiithin the capabilities of our industry and then planning on using them in cocert in task forces?
@Baz, you talk about expendable sonobuoys. The FSL talks about hiring oceanography companies to deploy a fleet of sensor vessels to light up the darkness.
"According to MoD, 26 companies from the UK and Europe have submitted sensor concepts, while 20 firms have proposed prototype developments.
"In the coming weeks, selected companies will advance their development work from concept to operational use, with capabilities expected to be deployed at sea next year."
The Oceanus 12 is representative of some of the USV platforms under consideration for immediate deployment.
The RN's autonomous escort is expected in the water next year.
The Proteus Rotary Wing UAS, which builds on the Fire Scout deployments in the US, is entering service.
The XV Excalibur XLUUV, which looks a lot like the Anduril Ghost Shark adopted by the RAN and the USN and is in production, is being integrated into the Shield part of Bastion.
....
I posted the MTB video because I wanted to back up the concept of autonomous torpedo boats drifting on the currents in the North Atlantic.
That same video describes how the MTBs were idears geanerated outside the chain of command and developed by civilians. They were promoted by enthusiasts and adopted in extremis by the Admiralty out of necessity. They were made, like the Mosquito, from non-strategic materials, (mahogany and plywood), by under-employed tradesmen (carpenters, joiners, cabinet and piano makers) in any available space (they only displaced 75 tons all up). They were minimally manned (crew of seven) with minimally trained reservists (yachtsmen and fishermen).
But they could carry four heavy torpedoes and working in "swarms" destroy a lot of tonnage, including what might be classified as corvettes.
These days, I believe, we could float dozens, if not hundreds of uninhabited, self-righting MTBs in the Noth Atlantic and arm each one with 2 to 4 heavy torpedos like the ADCAP and Stingray instead of the lighter Mk 54 carried by helicopters and ASROC. They then become a field of self-propelled off-route mines that can be relocated and attack deep or surface targets on command. They can be laid and tended by AOPS, or CG vessels or any vessel with a flexdeck.
These types of innovations, forced on us because we have wasted decades debating how best to face this day, are changing the operating environment for subs, deepwater ships and coastal ships.
PS the Ghost Bat XXLUUV can carry the equivalent of two TEUs in free flooded chambers. They Aussies are publicly declaring thenm as mine layers. How many heavy torpedos can be carried in a 20 ft seacan?
...
Canada always seem to strive to pack as much as possible into the small number of platforms it is allowed to buy. I believe that this prematurely terminates a lot of projects because it raises complexity, often well beyond the competency of our industry, and raises costs concurrently.
Why don't we try going the other way for a change and try building a lot of small, simple platforms that are wiithin the capabilities of our industry and then planning on using them in cocert in task forces?
