Contract Lengths (Merged)

[brendanhm1]

That is a question that won't be answered conclusively here.  When you put in your transfer, the CT folks at DMCA will be the ones figuring all that out.

I see, I just wouldn't want to put in for a CT without knowing the answer to these questions.

And I have tried recruiting. They sort of "bypass" the question...

 

[aesop081]

And I have tried recruiting. They sort of "bypass" the question...

So keep asking.........

 

[BC Old Guy]

So keep asking.........

Actually, the CFRC may not have the answer either - and it may take some time to get someone up the chain to provide them with an answer. Th

As well, there is a difference between obligatory service, and VIE.  And depending on time in and whether the CT staff consider the current level of training as sufficicent to be considered as occupationally qualified, they may decide to offer UTPNCM rather than ROTP.

You won't know for sure until you apply and get an offer.

 

[adaminc]

I know no one asked so far but the LCIS Tech contract is initially 5 years, then there is a choice between a 3 year or 20 year, if you choose the 3 year, after that you have a choice of 20 year minus time served, so about 17 years.

 

[The_Falcon]

I see, I just wouldn't want to put in for a CT without knowing the answer to these questions.

And I have tried recruiting. They sort of "bypass" the question...

They bypass the question, becuase they aren't in charge of CT's and making offers related to CT's anymore.

 

[c_canuk]

I'm in the process of getting my CT, on my message they offered me VIE(4)

now as I've got almost 10 years in res and I'm keeping all my courses and rank, people have said I should try to get a CE instead... other than being required to serve 4 years are there any other consequences of being on a VIE rather than a CE?

IE Annual Leave, promotion rate etc?

 

[George Wallace]

You are an "unknown" quality, so I doubt you will get a CE on enrolment. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

ADM (HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05 covers all the info on the Reg Force Terms of Service.

More specifically, ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 05/05 ANNEX A APPENDIX 1 covers in detail the TOS Sequence By Occupations for all of the NCM and Officer occupations, current as of 28 Feb 08. 

 

[c_canuk]

17. TOS on Component Transfer: Members who transfer from the Reserve Force into the Regular Force on will be enrolled on a VIE IAW Appendix 1 of Annex A. However skilled members who transfer from the Reserve Force into the Regular Force who are assigned an occupation in which they are considered skilled, may be offered a reduced initial engagement period. CFRG, in consultation with the Career Manager, is authorized to offer these skilled members a CE instead of a VIE. The CE must be for a period of a minimum of 18 months to a maximum of the length of the VIE for the occupation to which members are assigned. The actual period will be based on the needs of the CF at the time of the offer.

this confirms that I can get a CE TOS, however my question remains... what is the difference between VIE, CE and IE beyond the lengths of required service?

if I'm enrolled in a CE is the first 4 years in VIE written off as already served? Are there other career implications?

from what I understand, when I sign a TOS I commit to serving the CF for the amount of time specified on the TOS, the VIE is different for each trade and is used to keep you in long enough to get service from the member to recoup the cost of training, the CE is only manditory for some trades, and an IE is issued after CE to bring you out to 25 years.

I don't understand what the technical difference between a VIE, CE and IE are beyond the lengths and order in which they are offered. Is that all there is too it?

if I go on as a VIE(4) and perform well enough to be offered CE(3), once I complete the CE will I be given the option to sign an IE to bring be to 19 years + 6 perviously served(class A at 1:4 and Class B/C 1:1) or is the TOS and pensionable time completely seperate.

if seperate, once I have 25 years pensionable time in, can I release without penalty to my pension, or will I have to complete IE 25, or will I be able to request an IE of 19 years on termination of my CE?

 

[BC Old Guy]

this confirms that I can get a CE TOS,

- Sorry - the para you quoted only gives CFRG the authority to offer a CE.  If they offered a VIE or IE25 contract, and you only wished to have a CE, you could ask, if you qualify -however that will delay the process, and may not result in a change to the original offer.

The terms of service are set up to provide some predictability to the system of enrolling, training and employing people.  With the recent changes, the VIE is just that - the initial engagement for new entrants to the system, with the length of the terms of service varying by occupation and entry plan.  Since the "model" recruit for the VIE has no military experience, it is set up to provide the basic training, and get the person to a point that they can be useful in an operation, yet short enough so that those who are not certain they wish to spend a lifetime in the military do not have an additional institutional policy discouraging their participation.

A CE is offered for a variety of reasons, such as the individual not having enough time left to CRA to complete a VIE, but who has skills that can be useful to the CF during that time, and which are needed.

An IE is the Terms Of Service (TOS) used to provide a "typical" person with a normal career path, and lead for those who wish, and who are selected, for an extended career - the IPS that takes them to CRA.

The contract in the terms of service provides for various incentives for an individual to complete those terms of service - such as severance pay and paid move on release, etc, some of which are reduced or not available if the individual does not complete their terms of service.

[if I'm enrolled in a CE is the first 4 years in VIE written off as already served? /quote]
No - you just won't have served a VIE.  Depending on the occupation, your age, and the requirements of the service, once the CE is completed, you could be released or offered other terms of service that are in place at that time (so technically you could go from a CE to a IE25). Some occupations have provided a CE after the VIE as they found that many people were reluctant to sign on for an IE25 after only 2-3 yrs in the military, much of which was spent on training.

Are there other career implications?

The main career implication is that you may have fewer years to accomplish your goals, attend training and gain experience.

if I go on as a VIE(4) and perform well enough to be offered CE(3), once I complete the CE will I be given the option to sign an IE to bring be to 19 years + 6 previously served(class A at 1:4 and Class B/C 1:1) or is the TOS and pensionable time completely seperate.

The IE 25 takes you to 25 years of service, which includes the previous Reg F time (VIE and CE).  With the new superannuation rules, the 25 years  for an unreduced annuity is not linked to terms of service.  Technically, someone with extensive Cl B and Cl C service could get a 25 year unreduced annuity with only 2-3 years of Reg F service.

In order to get full details, you would need to sit down with the DAODs on TOS, and the CMP instructions, and the details of the superannuation act, with someone who has some experience and time to go over the details with you.  If you are fortunate, and haven`t upset you Chief Clerk, they would be a good person to discuss the details of the various options you are looking at.

 

[c_canuk]

my current unit's (the one I'm on class B with) Reg F chief clerk is recommending I request CE rather than accept VIE, but if there aren't any carreer/pension implications it's not worth holding up the process yet again to get my message ammended. I've already had to get my marital status, Recruiting allowance and posting changed, so I don't think they want to hear from me again.

I just wondered if there was reason enough to request yet another message ammendment and risk annoying the pers at DMCA over this issue.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

From my read of Instruction 05/05, you can turn down the offer with the VIE and request a CE, which will go to the CM shop.  Being that it is a CT, I am not sure I'd mess with the offer myself.

In the case of someone already on their VIE, they get the offer for IE25 2 years before their VIE ends, so they have 2 years to determine their next TOS...in your case, it is holding up your CT.

My question is...why would you care if it was a VIE or CE either, unless you aren't planning on staying in as long as the VIE is for?

 

[c_canuk]

From my read of Instruction 05/05, you can turn down the offer with the VIE and request a CE, which will go to the CM shop.

that is my understanding also

Being that it is a CT, I am not sure I'd mess with the offer myself.

... the offer for CT you initially get is based on what is best for the CF, not based on what is best for the member.

ie on the first message they offered me no recruiting allowance, even though Canforgen 146/08 states I'm entitled to one, Res that go through the CT route need to carefully read their offer letter and negotiate terms before agreeing to it. thats part of the process. however I've already had my message ammended once and don't want to be a pain in the glutes if there is no real benifit.

In the case of someone already on their VIE, they get the offer for IE25 2 years before their VIE ends, so they have 2 years to determine their next TOS...in your case, it is holding up your CT.

the reserves don't have TOS, so this is all new to me and I thought there was more to it than what I was reading and the advise of others leads me to believe there might be.

My question is...why would you care if it was a VIE or CE either, unless you aren't planning on staying in as long as the VIE is for?

I didn't until people were telling me that I might be able to go to CE in the same tone of voice they tell me I'm entitled to a Recruiting allowance.  ;D

I just wanted to verify that 19 years from now when I have 25 years pensionable time, if I decide to pull the pin, there isn't going to be a nasty suprise.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I just wanted to verify that 19 years from now when I have 25 years pensionable time, if I decide to pull the pin, there isn't going to be a nasty suprise.

I had the same question and never got a solid answer (I had a buy-back of 10 years PFTPS).  The answer I got was "you will need do the IE25 but when you get out, you will have a pension/severance for 35 years of service".

But I have no reference to confirm that...and at the time I thought "I guess I'll worry about that later"...

 

[c_canuk]

yeah, no one seems to know, though in the back of my mind I thought there was a canforgen or change of policy somewhere that said that was no longer the case and you could count the time at the start... I guess I 'll cross that bridge when I get to it. it's a difference of getting out when I'm 48 or 54 so I'm not all that concerned.

thanks for your input.

 

[TimReo]

Hello.

I was curious about applying to either Combat Engineer, Communicator Research Operator, or Intelligence Operator.  I read that the standard years of Service is 3 years, is it longer for specific trades? Does time in the forces start after you finish Basic and are fully trained? I know officers get to serve longer.

I looked at a few posts here but they were from 2005 so i wasn't too sure what they were the same or if anything has changed.

Any help would be great, thanks in advance!

 

[DAA]

Hello.
I was curious about applying to either Combat Engineer (4 years), Communicator Research Operator (4 years), or Intelligence Operator (5 years).  I read that the standard years of Service is 3 years, is it longer for specific trades? Does time in the forces start after you finish Basic and are fully trained? I know officers get to serve longer.
I looked at a few posts here but they were from 2005 so i wasn't too sure what they were the same or if anything has changed.
Any help would be great, thanks in advance!

Your initial Terms of Service (TOS) with the CF will be based on the occupation that you are hired into, so each occupations TOS will vary.  Initial TOS for the three occupations is shown above.

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in Ask a CAF Recruiter. Adding here as a future reference,

Question about Service length

I read that the standard years of Service is 3 years, is it longer for specific trades?

Your initial Terms of Service (TOS) with the CF will be based on the occupation that you are hired into, so each occupations TOS will vary. 

See also,

VARIABLE INITIAL ENGAGEMENT LENGTHS BY OCCUPATION ( NCM and Officers )
http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/MOSID_and_MOC

Contract Length
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+contract&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=n3DtVvKdIsqC8QfFo4GQBA&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+contract+length

VIE ( VARIABLE INITIAL ENGAGEMENT )
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+contract&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=n3DtVvKdIsqC8QfFo4GQBA&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+VIE

 

[TimReo]

Thanks for the info.  [

 

[Mike Wazowski]

Hello there people of the forum. I am new to this forum and registered so I could ask a question. I'm planning to sign up for the military (Infantry Soldier) when I am 20 years old, currently I am 15 years old. I just want to know how long I have to serve until I could leave the army and get a civilian job. If I do join the army when I am 20 years old, I plan to retire once I am 30-35 years old, would that be possible?

Just in case you wanted to know, I plan on joining the army not because of the video games that I play which glorifies violence and killing, such as Call of Duty and Counter Strike. I plan on joining the army to understand what it means to become a man, and also to actually become a man. I also understand the risks and challenges of being a Canadian soldier.

Thank you in advance.