Cormorant problems

[Good2Golf]

dapaterson, CFLAWC is active enough in ensuring that suitable parachute and load/rigging training is provided to CF elements that need it, that it's doors will definitely be open for a long time to come.  SAR Tech training support is only a small part of its overall activity levels.

On the SAR issue, Zoomie has noted some legislative and institutional limitations/constraints that exist today.  Even in civil/governmental (non-CF) aviation, however, there are special operating waivers that can be requested of TC to accomplish required tasks.  NVG use has been a long time coming in the civilian world, currently only starting in Canada for MEDEVAC helicopters, but I am certain their use will expand.  The main issue remains the 'whole of Government' position that DND is the lead agency for SAR activities.  Until the government decides that TC through DFO/CCG does SAR, DND will remain the main provider.

Cheers
G2G

 

[gwp]

The main issue remains the 'whole of Government' position that DND is the lead agency for SAR activities.  Until the government decides that TC through DFO/CCG does SAR, DND will remain the main provider.
Cheers
G2G

The National SAR response is the responsibility of the Interdeparmental Committee on Search and Rescue that reports to the Search and Rescue Secretariat that reports to the MND who happens to be the lead Minister for Search and Rescue. 

Because it can ... DND provides Joint Coordination.  Air Command is but one participant in Air Search and Rescue.  While the MND reports to Government, DND is not the lead agency.

http://www.nss.gc.ca/site/index_e.asp

http://www.nss.gc.ca/site/reports/nsp/2006plan/programplan_e.asp

The particular role of DND is found here:

http://www.nss.gc.ca/site/reports/nsp/2006plan/annexA3_e.asp

 

[gwp]

delete

 

[Good2Golf]

The National SAR response is the responsibility of the Interdeparmental Committee on Search and Rescue that reports to the Search and Rescue Secretariat that reports to the MND who happens to be the lead Minister for Search and Rescue.  Because it can ... DND provides Command and Control and Air Command is but one participant in Air Search and Rescue.  DND is not however the lead agency.

http://www.nss.gc.ca/site/index_e.asp

The particular role of DND is found here:
http://www.nss.gc.ca/site/reports/nsp/2006plan/programplan_e.asp

Your point was?  That a committee is doing all the work? That it's not the Department but rather Minister Mackay who sits in his corner office controlling search and rescue activities?  I believe you knew what I meant regarding DND provision of SAR services.  Perhaps I should have been more clear and said Canadian Aviation SAR response.

If you are able to point folks to all the appropriate NSS web pages, then you could have also taken the time to note that Federal jurisdiction Aviation and Maritime SAR is coordinated by primarily* through the joint efforts of DND and the CCG at the three national Joint Rescue Coordination Centres (JRCCs) across Canada.

*Note: Acknowledgment that while DND/CF and DFO/CCG provides the material majority of SAR operational response, there is contribution from six Federal Departments/Agencies in the provision of National SAR Program services; Canadian Forces, Canadian Coast Guard, Environment Canada's Meteorological Service of Canada, Parks Canada, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and Transport Canada.

G2G

 

[MarkOttawa]

Good2Golf: Quite.  An unless and until the government decides to give the CCG a real aviation component, staffed by CCG personnel, things cannot change.  Or one could get the federal government out of the primary aerial SAR role, at least inland.

CCG helicopters' role here,
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/eng/CCG/Careers_Helicopters

pilots actually from Transport Canada:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Fisheries-And-Oceans-Canada-783111.html

...All Coast Guard helicopters are flown and serviced by Transport Canada employees assigned to the agency...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Bograt]

Wondering out loud if it wouldn't be more cost effective to buy/lease another 2-3 and purchase a CAT D sim for here in Canada.

How many a/c hours could be shifted to SAR if more work was done in the box?

 

[Zoomie]

The school has their students spending quite some time in a Level D simulator right now.  It is quite the departure from the original syllabus.  The students aren't complaining - the sim is in England.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Post at Unambiguously Ambidextrous:

Talk about high-level sole sourcing!/Khadr Update
http://unambig.com/talk-about-high-level-sole-sourcing/

But it just might make sense:

    Canadian Forces eye Obama’s chopper cast-offs
    Cancelled presidential helicopters could supply spare parts for Cormorants...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The RCAF was solely responsible for SAR up till 1964, except for a few Department of Marine Transport lifeboats stations. In the 1964, RCAF stations such as Kitsolano Were turned over lock stock and barrel (crews, boats included, don’t ask me how that worked) Coast Guard had to scramble to purchase hulls to meet this new requirement, hence the R class boats. If fact they did 2 week patrols for the first couple of years around Vancouver island in the 40’ crashboats, with the crew sleeping aboard!!!! (I like those boats bu not that much)

There is no technical reason that SAR response could not be turned over to a private agency, although I doubt they would turn over the RCC’s as they have access to much sensitive information. But I can see the helicopters being privatized and with the current attitude of the CG to avoid working with other department (at least on this coast) I can also see a cash strapped government looking at a “Trinity House  model” Perhaps at least for the buoy tenders. I can see a political fight forming if they try to privatize the helicopters and the rescue cutters, similar to the lighthouse issue, but it’s still quite possible. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

Colin P.: One of those logical approaches that I just don't think will, er, fly in Canada.  The Air Force likes the kudos and TV exposure it gets from warm and fuzzy SAR work and I think would fight hard--in public too--to keep it.  Moreover I don't think any government is willing to take the political risk of a non-governmental screw-up in a SAR effort which would no doubt happen at some point.  No gov't has even dared to abolish the National Search & Rescue Secretariat,
http://www.nss.gc.ca/site/whoWeAre/index_e.asp
set up (as you know) as a result of the Ocean Ranger:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Ranger

Whereas the much more important to have as an autonomous agency Emergency Preparedness Canada (eventually Office of Critical Infrastructure Protection and Emergency Preparedness) was abolished in 2004 by the Martin government and folded into what was first Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada and is now just Public Safety Canada:
http://computer.yourdictionary.com/office-of-critical-infrastructure-protection-and-emergency-preparedness

Somehow I doubt emergency planning and response now gets the serious and undivided attention it once did now that the functions are just performed as part of a regular bureaucracy with rather higher priorities in many other areas (RCMP, CSIS. CBSA. CSC) that have a much higher public and political profile.

Note where the function now is and guess which has priority:

EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND NATIONAL SECURITY BRANCH
http://sage-geds.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/cgi-bin/direct500/eng/XEou%3dEMNSB-SGUSN%2cou%3dPS-SP%2co%3dGC%2cc%3dCA

Yet for some reason SAR too continues to have a very high profile.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Strike]

One of the problems to consider with privatizing SAR, aside from how it will be funded, is the cost of the liability such a company would have to pay.  If the country were to expect the same type of service they have now (SAR techs, flying in less than favourable weather, landing in extreme confined LZs) the liability cost would be astronomical.

New Zealand has privatized helo rescue services but I'm not familiar with their SOPs, how they compare to what we have and do.
http://www.helicopters.net.nz/christchurch-westpac-rescue-helicopter-nz-flying-doctors__I.122

 

[quadrapiper]

Yet for some reason SAR too continues to have a very high profile.

As it's one of the few highly, nationally-visible (rather'n coastal or Northern) continuous CF operations in Canada? Makes sense.

Just to add a few more bodies to the land-SAR mix, there's also each province's version of ground search and rescue, and, at least in BC, CASARA; the latter generally providing fair-weather air-search capabilities.

Question from volunteer Ground SAR: is the rotor (footprint? circle? length?) shorter/smaller than it should be? There's a rumour to that effect floating around, as an explanation for the tree-uprooting, rock-flinging downdraft from the things. The most developed version of the rumour claimed a design decision made to allow landing/storage onboard ship.

 

[bison33]

As it's one of the few highly, nationally-visible (rather'n coastal or Northern) continuous CF operations in Canada? Makes sense.

Just to add a few more bodies to the land-SAR mix, there's also each province's version of ground search and rescue, and, at least in BC, CASARA; the latter generally providing fair-weather air-search capabilities.

Question from volunteer Ground SAR: is the rotor (footprint? circle? length?) shorter/smaller than it should be? There's a rumour to that effect floating around, as an explanation for the tree-uprooting, rock-flinging downdraft from the things. The most developed version of the rumour claimed a design decision made to allow landing/storage onboard ship.

IRT your questions, where are these rumours coming from?  NO, for your first one. The rotor diameter on the CH-149 is no different than any other AW101 (called that now) variant out there (61'). Helicopters push air down so the side effect is, when near the ground,  flinging rocks-dirt-shrubbery, a pickup being blown down a riverbank(Calgary Stampede, behind the Saddledome),  sheets of plywood flying randomly about, and so on.
As for the second "rumour", it is actually true. Shocking, I know ;D
Near all helos used by Maritime forces(even those used by the AF/Army/Marines/CGs of the world) have a blade folding system, whether it is a manual system (our Griffons are capable of this, great for loading on a transport plane), or a powered system (Sea Kings as an example). Only exceptions I have seen are the Italians who use (may not anymore) a Twin Huey on their smaller ships. I'm sure others do also. Warships of size have hangars and the birds will need to be inside from time to time, hence a folding blade system.

 

[quadrapiper]

Thanks!

The rumour? Not sure as to the initial source (possibly a Provincial Emergency Program type), but it came out after a Cormorant, called to pick someone out of a creek right in back of Ladysmith, tossed up some small trees, etc, one of which broke the leg of a fireman sheltering the victim; sometime in the spring of 08, I think.

Interesting.

 

[Zoomie]

The Cormorant does have an intense downdraft - much more so than the Labrador.  This is one of the reasons why rescues are perform on a longer hoist cable than previously done - to dampen the effects of the downdraft.  If you get a chance to be near one when it isn't running - take a good look at the tips of the rotors.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Winching from the hovercraft used to require us to shut down, the downdraft caused us to spin complicating things for the winch operater and pilot. Downdraft from the Lab sucked. (edited grammer due to lack of sleep and coffee)

Mark I fully agree that privitizing SAR is a political minefield. However I seem to recall that they did have a private SAR helo and crew based in Prince Rupert for awhile. CG mounted a winch on their S-61 in Prince rupert, but are reluctant to use it or train the people properly. When I was doing SAR on the North Coast, most of our helicopter support came from the USCG.
The thin edge of the wedge will be to provide a commerical Federally funded SAR service in an area that does not have much coverage already, so people will see it as an improvement and not a change for the worse.

 

[Strike]

Winching from the hovercraft used to require us to shut down, the downdraft cause use to spin complicating things for the winch operater and pilot. Downdraft from the Lab sucked.

Speak English!

As to the blades on the Cormorant, those things are monsters! 

Zoomie, you'd know the answer to this.  Is it actually possible to walk on them?  I recall someone telling me that when one of these beasts landed behind the O-Mess in Gagetown some years ago.

 

[Zoomie]

I haven't seen anyone walk on the blades. It would be a pretty precarious feat!

 

[kj_gully]

I think I  what you are asking about the blade being shorter, they have a specially designed BERP    rotor, that effectively shortens required blade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BERP_rotor ) while concentrating downwash over smaller diameter. Like being in a hurricane/ tornado for sure. Definitely need to keep your head up.

 

[rnkelly]

http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/rotorhub/canadians-to-cannibalise-vh-71s-for-cormorant-spares/9418/

Canadians to cannibalise VH-71s for Cormorant spares

June 27, 2011

The Canadian Forces (CF) has reportedly bought nine of the VH-71s purchased for the US Presidential 'Marine One' helicopter programme.
The airframes, which have been in storage since the cancellation of the programme in June 2009 will be stripped down by the Canadians and used as a spares source for its fleet of CH-149 Cormorant search and rescue helicopters.

According to the Canadian press, Ottawa paid just $164 million for the nine aircraft and other additional spares, a fraction of the $3 billion the US Government ploughed into the project before the plug was pulled. The VH-71s are reportedly not in a flyable condition and cannot be used to provide additional SAR capacity.

The Cormorant fleet has suffered from spares shortages since the type was introduced into Canadian Forces services in 2001 and 2002, and Ottawa hopes that the purchase will address what it describes as 'long-standing fleet availability issues related to the availability of spare parts.'

The first components from the nine VH-71s arrived in March, with the rest of the components expected to between now and September.

By Tony Osborne, London

Great job to whoever got this done and for a bargain price too!  Hopefully this will mean more Cormorants serviceable, let the cannibalization begin soon (get those puppies here).