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Could the T-72 Work?

Gunner

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Could the T-72 Work?

Could the T-72 tank work?  The Russian designed T-72 is roundly seen as one of the worst tanks in service today. The natural question, of course, is, "Could the T-72 have been a good tank?" This is a question asked of other weapons that never really worked in the past or the present.

First, one needs to look at what the T-72 is. It is a relatively simple tank, particularly when compared to the Abrams, Leopard 2, or Challenger - meaning it is easier to produce in quantity. The T-72 also is easier to man, since one only needs three people (a driver, gunner, and commander) due to the autoloader. It is a small tank (seven feet tall and 45 tons) compared to the Abrams (nine feet and 70 tons), making it a little harder to see and hit. It also comes cheaper than an Abrams, Leopard, or Challenger. One can buy a number of T-72s for the price of one of the Western tanks, but are more T-72s better than a few Abrams, Leopard, or Challenger tanks?

The T-72's combat record is well-known. Israeli military forces destroyed T-72s in combat against the Syria in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. In Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom, T-72s were easily picked off by the American M-1s and British Challengers. The short version of the T-72's combat record is that the T-72 has often proved to be second-best on the battlefield. And being second-best on the battlefield will not change the fact that one has lost.

Why is the T-72 coming out second-best? Well, in the major conflicts the T-72 has been involved in, it has faced highly professional opponents in Lebanon and Iraq. The Israeli Defense Forces, US Army, and US Marine Corps all train hard - the Americans have been known to comment that Desert Storm was like an exercise at the National Training Center, "only the Iraqis weren't as good" as the simulated NTC opponents.  The versions that have faced off against the Israelis and Americans have often been export models, which have been downgraded from what is in Russian service. However, there still are some problems with the tank's design.

First, this tank is small. The armor protection is a little iffy, even with applique or reactive systems. It was not unheard of for sabot rounds to go completely through one T-72 and then to kill a second T-72 behind it. Next, the small size means everything is packed in closely. Ammunition storage for the tank's main gun is nestled inside the fuel tanks. This is not a good thing when the tank gets hit. Everything is going to blow apart. The T-72's nickname among American forces is "Jack in the Box" - usually because one hit sends the T-72's turret flying upwards.

Second, this tank does not have much in the way of ensuring crew survival if it is hit. Tanks are useless without trained personnel - this is why tanks like the Abrams and Merkava often are so big. The Abrams and Merkava are designed so that if they are hit, the crew has a very good chance of surviving. The tank might have to undergo extensive repairs, but the crew can transfer to a new tank, taking the lessons learned with them. The crew of a T-72 that is hit will often end up dead or so badly wounded they cannot return to combat.

Third, the fire-control systems are not that hot. They can be modernized, but the real problem is that the T-72 has to survive to get into firing position. The only real advantage that the T-72 brings over the Abrams, Leopard, and Challenger is that one can buy several T-72s for the price of one of these Western tanks. There's just one problem with this apparent advantage: One must find enough crew for those tanks, and keep in mind that the Western tanks often have fought the T-72 when outnumbered - and emerged unscathed while the T-72s were destroyed.

For all the effort the designers placed into the T-72, it just simply doesn't have the ability to be an effective main battle tank in the 21st century. The tank's major flaws cannot be overcome to enable it to stand up to Western main battle tanks. In this case, buying T-72s is a case of being penny-wise and pound foolish. - Harold C. Hutchison (hchutch@ix.netcom.com)
 
I don't know what context the original article was written for, but I'd say the guy answered all his own questions. It's a non-starter.
 
A couple of interesting points brought up in the article though;

1. The T72 is an export tank and, as such, is the only soviet tank designed without a wire-guided missile system that can be fired down the barrel, which would increase the tanks range for being able to get long-range hits. All the other Russian MBT's from the T64 onward have this system.

2. The T72 was designed to operate in a relatively large, yet untrained (or peasant) army, where there are large numbers of personnel available, but that they are relatively unskilled and come from largely uneducated (or minimally educated) back grounds. The tank is an easy piece of kit to learn to use and operate.

3. In order to produce something for export you have to have a client for your product...The Russian's knew that the West would not be the ones buying the tank so they looked (for the most part) to A: poorer client states and B: The Middle East...Neither of which had huge amounts of currency available to purchase complicated weapons systems. And even if they did they didn't have the educated population base to be able to operate something like the Leo or the Abrams.

4. Something not known about the T72 (this is first hand experience) The tank will run forever on a single set of road wheels, track and suspension even if you pound the crap out of it. The only drawback is that it uses a tremendous amount of oil to stay functioning. (it literally pours the stuff out in buckets!) The T72 at the Armour School in Gagetown ran for a dog's age before needing any replacement parts. You just had to keep feeding it oil.

Like I said, designed as an export product with a specific market in mind.

Slim
 
Well said Slim- the T-72 is much like the AK series of rifles. Designed for peasants....lots and lots of peasants. :)

One thing that wasn't addressed: how does the T-72 stack up against the Cougar?...or some of the new vehicles we're deploying....
 
Try some of these posts on TankNet:

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=9696
 
I think when people on militaryphotos.com and such do number crunching comparisons of different weapons systems, they compare them in some kind of perfect video game enviroment that makes no sense in real life. They don't realize Countries buy weapons for different purposes, not always to fight the Fulda Gap. A T-72 is better than no tank at all, up against a light infantry enemy, it's still a tank.

What about strategic mobility? a T-72 weighs what, 45 tons? compared to 60+ tons for an M-1. How many can you fit on the back of a transport plane? On a freighter?

Do a study on bridge capacities for somewhere like, say, Kosovo. Whats the max tonnage that most bridges can handle?  Will you require engineers to build new bridges just to move the tanks across country?

How about fuel efficiency? With the ammount of tankers you have, can your logistics tail keep up with a 60 ton  gas turbine powered tank? Maintainance? Weighing 60+ tons probably doesn't make field maintainace  and recovery any easier.

Factor in the above (to name just a few that a dumb infantryman can come up with) and would you rather have a plt of T-72s behind you firing you in,  or a plt of M-1s stuck 50 miles in the rear because they're out of fuel or waiting for bridging equipment or 500 miles away on a ship in the middle of the ocean. At that point your comaprions of RHAs and main gun calibers and APFSDS penetration won't be doing you much good.

The Red army had thought about all of this, strategic mobility being key to their doctrines, and if you think the USSR lacked the technical ability to build a 60 ton tank you are mistaken. It's the Sherman vs King Tiger comparison all over again. The T-72 was and still is an excellent tank for their style of warfare and I would say many other countries too.



EDIT: I'm not a treadhead, I'm sure some of my numbers are a little off, but the point still stands.
 
The T-72 is a dated design that doesnt match up well to the Abrams or Challenger. Quality of crews/training of 3d world countries is suspect. These factors will not change even if these countries can afford to spend the money on training to western standards.

http://www.informationblast.com/T-72.html
 
Garry said:
One thing that wasn't addressed: how does the T-72 stack up against the Cougar?...or some of the new vehicles we're deploying....

The Cougar is now basically out of service, so comparisons are immaterial.  Having said that, I believe that during the first Gulf War a T-72 was hit by a Scorpion 76mm round (same gun as Cougar) along the turret line and was taken out (caveat:  I have NO reference for this and can't for the life of me remember which Brit told me the story!).  It might be better to ask how the tank stands up against modern 25mm AP rounds (or 30mm for that matter)...

I've been in T-72s (caveat #2 - I didn't crew one like some at the school did) and wasn't overly impressed.  The driver's station was tiny and the crew commander risked having his left arm taken off by the autoloader.  It was cramped and would be hell to live in. The tank has a decent low silhouette, but has little else going for it.  Is it better than no tank at all...of course.  However, there's much better out there...

My 2 cents, as always,

TR
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
the crew commander risked having his left arm taken off by the autoloader.  

Yah...They called that autoloader the "Armripper." I guess it did get a bit of a negative rep for chewing up the occasional crewman's arm or two...(not Canadian crew thankfully)

Slim
 
It also apparently has a nasty habit of taking off on it's own when started cold, something about the Hydraulic clutch I believe. Have sat in one myself (East German model) Small internal volume and not much room for upgrades, the Soviets don't have anything to be ashamed of in this design, just a very different design criteria than the West. The soviets certainly were more able to produce a working auto-loader than the Americans.
From my readings, it appears the arm ripping bit about the auto loader is bit overdone and there were few cases of it happening. Having your body parts in the wrong place at the wrong time in any tank can cause very nasty injuries.
 
No the T-72 is nowhere near as good as a LeClerc or Abrams etc - but when you talk about it 'always coming about it second best' at least mention that it was always defeated by Depleted Uranium rounds whereas it was firing conventional rounds itself.   At least the T-72 can be used as an ATGM launcher from 4000Km - way out of the Abram's reach.

I would go for the T80U with Shtora-1 countermeasures suite and AT-11 Sniper ATGMs.


Tanky
 
Just came across this little gem on the what the Germans did with some of the T-72s they inherited fronm the former E German Army after unification

http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/armania/armor/armour/t72/T72M1.html
 
Mister Britney Spears is correct in that context is everything.

The Sherman tank was a poor match to the Panther or Tiger, however, with Detroit cranking them out by the hundreds, and being fielded by three armies in Normandy who relied on artillery and, to a small degree, airpower, it was able to do wonders, thanks in part to numbers and the excellence of other arms, particuarly the artillery.

1 Roman Legionnaire couldn't defeat 1 Gothic barbarian, but it is said 100 Romans could defeat 1000 barbarians...would the same not apply to T-72s and Abrams?

From Danjanou's article: "the principal design flaw is related to the tendency to set on fire once penetration ocurrs" - sound familiar to Sherman tankers?
 
Michael I had an uncle (passed a few years back ) who drove the dam things in NWE in 1944-45, and yeah basically I'm sure he would have found that very familiar. What was their nickname again "Ronsons"?
 
The T-72 "might" have worked, but in the context of Soviet Combined Arms battle doctrine. Essentially, "we" would have burned through T-72s and BMPs like they were cardboard targets, but "we" also would have been feeling the effects of the Soviet Artillery, which they called "Bog Vroney" (the god of war), not to mention simultaneous attacks throughout the depth of our battlespace by VDV, PVO and special forces and massive radio electronic combat attacks against our command and control infrastructure. Repeat as necessary until there is a breakthrough or "we" run out of ammunition. I have seen high level war games, and the most impressive event was the creation of the Red team "Fire Corridor" for the independent tank battalions to advance through and run wild in our rear areas.

In todays context, a third world army fielding T-72s would have local superiority vs a deployed Canadian force, but if the mission objectives and ROEs supported it, we could either evade them or try to deal with them by other means (anything from a CF-18 at 10k+ feet dropping a smart bomb to a few infantrymen crawling forward with a Carl-G or Eryx). We could always hope for allies who are not busy with other tasks to come over and deal with them as well. Perhaps fortunately for us, Russian tank design has been held back by their chaotic financial situation, since the "Black Eagle" http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/MBT/b_eagle.html and presumptive "T-95"  http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2004630.asp look and sound like well thought out concepts.

Victory, in the end, is a result of a lot of factors, including doctrine, TTPs, training and morale. Look at history and you will find countless battles which featured some sort of "wonder weapon" (from war elephants in the ancient world to poision gas in WW I) that proved irrelevant in battle.

 
Michael,

In your analysis which tank is the barbarian and which is the Roman?

Iain
 
2Bravo said:
Michael,

In your analysis which tank is the barbarian and which is the Roman?

Iain

The Sherman and the PzKpfw V, respectively....perhaps not the best analogy....
 
Michael,

Its an interesting quote but its kind of a hard fit to the tanks in question.  A Panther could take most Shermans in a straight up fight (although the Firefly was able to kill the Panther), so would this make it the barbarian?  As you say, numbers and supporting arms enabled the Shermans to prevail, so that part does not fit very well with the second part of the analogy.  Still, something to think about!

The quote could perhaps be applied to the tank situation in 1940/41, where some Allied Armour was superior to German armour (although this is debateable in some respects) on a one on one basis by comparing guns and armour, but German tactical methods would enable 100 tanks to defeat 1,000.

All,

Back to the T72, I'd certainly go with M1s any day, any place, any time.  The Soviets probably could have taken West Germany in 1975 unless nukes were employed.  By 1989 I think that it would have been a much closer run, even with T64s and T80s, due in no small part to the M1.

Cheers,

Iain
 
Russian Autoloaders Mature

Russia has been building autoloaders for its tanks since the 1960s. The early ones, despite being mass produced, were prone to frequent failures, and often injured crewmembers. But persistence pays off. The autoloader in the current T-90 tank can consistently and reliably load ammo fast enough for the tank to get off seven shots a minute. Practical rate of fire is lower, as you have to find a target and let the fire control system (laser rangefinder and computer) do their thing. A well trained crew could thus, on a crowded battlefield, get off four or five well aimed shots a minute, while moving.

American M-1 tanks, which still use a fourth crew member to load the gun, can get off six rounds a minute if the crew is well trained. American tank crews have always been much better trained than their Russian counterparts. That is changing, however, as the Russians have realized that crew training is a critical factor, and are now spending the money to actually let their crews practice a lot more. The Russians are also using their "perfected" autoloader as a major selling point as they try to market the T-90 to foreign customers.
 
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