CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21

[Colin Parkinson]

I like Lewis, but i know if she gets the leadership, that the left will attack her with unprecedented fury, in their eyes she will be both a race and sex traitor. I am not sure if she is prepared for that much hate. Funny enough another old white guy is more acceptable, but a woman of colour speaking off the 'approved" message is incredibly dangerous to them and must be destroyed. If picked the right must come together and provide complete and utter support to her.

 

[brihard]

I like Lewis, but i know if she gets the leadership, that the left will attack her with unprecedented fury, in their eyes she will be both a race and sex traitor. I am not sure if she is prepared for that much hate. Funny enough another old white guy is more acceptable, but a woman of colour speaking off the 'approved" message is incredibly dangerous to them and must be destroyed. If picked the right must come together and provide complete and utter support to her.

She won't get it, she'll be out in the second round after Sloan. It's going to hinge on whether O'Toole can pull enough second or third preference votes from the other two to beat MacKay. It also will depend on how many CPC members will ultimately cast their votes based on the candidates' electability federally versus what they would prefer to see as an 'ideal'. Polling data suggests the CPC have a better chance in a federal election under MacKay than under O'Toole. We'll see how much party members decide that matters.

 

[QV]

I like Lewis, but i know if she gets the leadership, that the left will attack her with unprecedented fury, in their eyes she will be both a race and sex traitor. I am not sure if she is prepared for that much hate. Funny enough another old white guy is more acceptable, but a woman of colour speaking off the 'approved" message is incredibly dangerous to them and must be destroyed. If picked the right must come together and provide complete and utter support to her.

This will happen no matter who the new CPC leader is.  That is just what the left, with MSM support, does now. 

 

[Remius]

This will happen no matter who the new CPC leader is.  That is just what the left, with MSM support, does now.

Not a 100% in agreement there.  The CPC has given the left and the MSM plenty of time and space to let themselves get beat up using their own hands.

 

[211RadOp]

Tory MP fires student after allegation of theft from O'Toole campaign

Greg McLean's office later confirmed firing was in connection with allegations lobbed by O'Toole campaign

The Canadian Press · Posted: Jun 23, 2020 1:04 PM ET | Last Updated: 2 minutes ago

A Conservative MP from Calgary has fired a summer student working in his office following allegations that someone stole campaign data from party leadership contender Erin O'Toole.

Greg McLean — one of dozens of MPs who have endorsed O'Toole — made the announcement in a terse statement Tuesday morning.


"Upon learning of a breach of trust involving a summer student in my office, I immediately took action and the individual was terminated," said McLean, the MP for Calgary Centre.

"This matter is entirely regrettable."

McLean's office later confirmed the firing was in connection with allegations lobbed by the O'Toole campaign late Friday night.

In a statement, O'Toole's campaign accused rival Peter MacKay's campaign of hacking into a trove of confidential campaign information, and downloading it, allowing it access to strategy and planning intelligence.

The MacKay campaign has denied the allegations, and none has been proven in court.

O'Toole's campaign says it has referred the matter to three separate police agencies.

The RCMP have confirmed they are reviewing the issue.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/greg-mclean-calgary-student-erin-otoole-peter-mackay-rcmp-theft-1.5623817

 

[Navy_Pete]

Are we talking about paying for Canadian citizens to get a ortions while abroad or are we talking about Canada paying for other countries citizens to get abortions?

Her specific policy is;

End funding for international abortions and focusing our foreign aid to promote overall healthcare - a policy that was broadly supported under Stephen Harper’s leadership.

  https://www.leslynlewis.ca/policies

That's pretty generic, so not sure specifically what it means. For example, if you have an organization (like Planned Parenthood) that includes abortion in a suite of overall healthcare policies, do you cut funding to it under the policy, or just have some kind of clause saying it can't be used for abortion? Typically, it's justified as 'not imposing our values', which is a convenient false flag argument to impose your own specific value set on our foreign aid policy.

I think a lot of people specifically voted against the Cons last time round because they didn't trust Scheer not to impose his own values (which I think he probably has) if he was given his values. So if leader with privately held social conservative values gets a kicking when people are genuinely searching for options, can't see how an openly social conservative stands a real chance. It's a minority opinion, and it's polarizing enough that you will mobilize people to actively vote against you.

O'Toole seems to be acting the bit of a fool, and becoming less impressed by his campaign as it rolls on. Actively courting the social conservative vote in his French campaign undermines my trust that he won't try and throw them some policy bones and roll things back, and the public accusations of something that no one outside political rallies cares about seems silly and desperate. Add in the personal attacks and it's not a good look for someone that wants to unite a party and be effective.

I've met MacKay, and my guy was he was a guy I wouldn't mind having a pint with, and was pragmatic enough he could get stuff done. My  :2c: is that anyone not running on a centralist kind of platform has no real pathway to forming the govt, and him being considered 'red' would be an asset.  When you look at some of the previous PC leaders, they were fairly socially progressive, but tying the social and fiscal conservatives together doesn't seem to be like a successful long term strategy.

I'd really like to have an option of voting for a party that could get things done without bankrupting the country and would just stay out of people's bedrooms/marriages. At this point I'd almost be willing to consider some benevolent dictatorship for a bit to reset the system to zero and (figuratively) burn down some of the bureaucratic institutions, but honestly think MacKay is probably their best chance to actually win, as he'd likely capture a lot of votes from outside the party base. They can feel free to elect Scheer 2.0 or a regressive social reformer and fight it out with the NDP and BQ for who will form the opposition I guess, but not sure I see the point.

 

[dapaterson]

I'd really like to have an option of voting for a party that could get things done without bankrupting the country and would just stay out of people's bedrooms/marriages. At this point I'd almost be willing to consider some benevolent dictatorship for a bit to reset the system to zero and (figuratively) burn down some of the bureaucratic institutions, but honestly think MacKay is probably their best chance to actually win, as he'd likely capture a lot of votes from outside the party base. They can feel free to elect Scheer 2.0 or a regressive social reformer and fight it out with the NDP and BQ for who will form the opposition I guess, but not sure I see the point.

It's important to remember that Scheer was everybody's seventh choice (at best) back in 2017.  He never led the transferable vote until the very last ballot when it became apparent that he was everybody's ultimate "anyone but Max" vote.  O'Toole only broke 20% in the penultimate round of voting.  Can he now be a symbol that (a) draws the party faithful to rally 'round the flag and simultaneously (b) draw a wider community in to the party's tent?  Without the former they can't get the vote out; without the latter, they're stuck being a western protest party with a small 905 wing.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don't know if the 2017 results are a great benchmark; the whole field was a pretty uninspiring collection of fourth liners with all the actual heavy hitters taking a hard pass on participating. Policies aside I think they need a leader with a bit of charisma that can actually excite people. If she wasn't riding the anti abortion train, I think Mrs. (Ms?) Lewis would be a really strong contender, but those are red lines on hard no's for too many people to be a viable alternative.

Maybe they should have stayed separate as the PCs and Reform party? The social conservative policies may have some appeal out west, but it is genuinely a stinking albatross for the majority of Canadians, so not really sure that broad church works. Harper seemed to be able to manage it, but he was a bit of a control freak with a stranglehold on the public messaging, and was doing enough big things on the financial/economic side that those were usually secondary issues, plus was kept busy between the war in Afg and the 2008 financial crash.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

Note that support for MacKay is high among 'all Canadians'. You can infer something about the centrist vote from that. The party loyalists will vote the party pretty much regardless; the pressure release valve for the problem children still exists in the form of the PPC. MacKay is the most likely path towards pulling in undecided moderate voters. Probably also the CPC's best bet for building the war chest they'll need for an eventual election.

I was going to ask, what good is getting elected if the CPC is led by someone who's basically Liberal-lite?

Then I remembered that Justin Trudeau is the leader of the LPC, and I would take a Liberal of pre-Trudeau years over Mr. Trudeau all day every day.

 

[RangerRay]

The only real difference between McKay and O’Toole is that O’Toole has adopted an “angry white guy” schtick. They are both solid moderate Tories, in my mind. If O’Toole becomes leader, he may find it difficult to re-tool to become attractive to the great swath of voters that that schtick wears thin on.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Not really an O'Toole fan but one of his emails, among the plethora of CPC emails getting flooded, was actually pretty good. I'll see if I deleted it or not.

All the emails from various cpc candidates talking about pro-life crap not so much.

 

[mariomike]

All the emails talking about pro-life crap not so much.

A pro life site gave him a D. Another, a red light.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Edited my comment. I don't thik O'Toole talked about pro life but did mention some interesting things about conversation therapy and such. I think it was about transgenderisim being pushed on young kids and the disproportionate number of kids in foster home identifying as transexual.

I'm not sure about trans stuff but I firmly believe the in thing for kids now is to brag about having different mental illness.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Edited my comment. I don't thibk O'Toole talked about pro life but did mention some interesting things about conversation therapy and such. I think it was about transgenderisim being pushed on young kids and the disproportionate number of kids in foster home identifying as transexual.

I'm not sure about trans stuff but I firmly believe the in thing for kids now is to brag about having different mental illness.

1. Society is fostering an environment where it’s (supposed) to be safe to discuss MH issues.

2. Society is also fostering an environment making kids more susceptible to developing MH issues.

‘Not rocket science about why we hear about things more often/openly, but being the “in thing” isn’t their primary reason for opening up in the majority of cases. Further, the reasons for why MH issues in young persons are on the rise has been discussed in other threads. It’s a complicated mix of several factors, which you know.

 

[Jarnhamar]

1. Society is fostering an environment where it’s (supposed) to be safe to discuss MH issues.

Society is also fostering an environment where everyone wants to be special and unique and one of the ways that plays out is everyone having some kind of mental health illness.
My daughter can name off every mental health illness her schoolmates have and it's not a small class. Lots of self-diagnosing.

2. Society is also fostering an environment making kids more susceptible to developing MH issues.

I'd say a lot of parents issues being pushed on to their kids as well.

‘Not rocket science about why we hear about things more often/openly, but being the “in thing” isn’t their primary reason for opening up in the majority of cases.

What are you basing this statement on? Mine's just opinion.

 

[mariomike]

I don't thibk O'Toole talked about pro life but did mention some interesting things about conversation therapy and such.

I just know what they say on their sites.

https://www.voteprolife.ca/find/view/mp/province/id/11259/name/erin-o-toole/
"Pro-abortion, pro-LGBT ideology"
Gave him a red light.

https://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/erin-otoole-record
Gave him a D.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Society is also fostering an environment where everyone wants to be special and unique and one of the ways that plays out is everyone having some kind of mental health illness.
My daughter can name off every mental health illness her schoolmates have and it's not a small class. Lots of self-diagnosing.

I'd say a lot of parents issues being pushed on to their kids as well.

What are you basing this statement on? Mine's just opinion.

A combination of personal experience, formal & non-formal post-secondary education, related volunteer experience involving at-risk youths, and informal discussions with a few professionals specializing in child psychology. I can pass along some helpful resources via pm if you’re interested.

My intent isn’t to hijack the thread. I just found your remarks rather narrow about the portion I highlighted. The experiences of one individual in a group of his/her peers often isn’t accurately reflective of  an entire population of that age group.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Biologically, adolescence is pretty much rigged to produce changes in mental health since the person has to grow from "mind of a child" to "mind of an adult".

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

I just know what they say on their sites.

https://www.voteprolife.ca/find/view/mp/province/id/11259/name/erin-o-toole/
"Pro-abortion, pro-LGBT ideology"
Gave him a red light.

https://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/erin-otoole-record
Gave him a D.

I am one of those much-maligned evil "social conservatives". I see no meaningful difference between MacKay and O'Toole on these issues and I'm also realistic enough to realize that not only is it very difficult for a "social conservative" to win I also don't believe in forcing my beliefs on others ... I just wish the "non-social conservatives" could give the same consideration.

I've cooled a LOT on O'Toole since the beginning of the race. He was initially my #1 choice. I'm not thinking I may but MacKay down ranked higher than O'Toole, although MacKay's snubbing of the NFA debate didn't ingratiate him to me. I actually like Sloane's platform on firearms the best and of the three in-on that NFA debate. I really liked the fact that Sloane actually answered the questions directly ... his stock rose in my estimation watching that debate but I realize he has zero chance of winning either the leadership race or a general election.

(For those interested that debate is here: https://youtu.be/KShVOViLd-U)

On the whole, I am thinking of giving my vote to MacKay as a guy who has the best chance to win and as noted, I'll take a "Red Tory" over Justin Trudeau's extreme left version of the LPC any day. It's not my ideal but politics "is the art of the possible" and it seems like MacKay is "possible". I think O'Toole might be too, but I just haven't been impressed with him and the angry white guy schtick is tiresome, disingenuous (given his voting record/actual stances on social issues), and won't play well with a broader voting base.

I have a bit of concern that "social conservative" voters who are short sighted may not vote for MacKay, but on the other hand who is their alternative? I don't even see the PPC as a "release valve" as people have noted here ... PPC doesn't seem socially conservative to me.

 

[Jarnhamar]

A combination of personal experience, formal & non-formal post-secondary education, related volunteer experience involving at-risk youths, and informal discussions with a few professionals specializing in child psychology. I can pass along some helpful resources via pm if you’re interested.

Sounds like you have considerable more experience on the subject than me. I'm not convinced I'm wrong but very much open to the possibility I am. My opinion is anecdotal in my case.

The experiences of one individual in a group of his/her peers often isn’t accurately reflective of  an entire population of that age group.

That's true. If I was being a bit more accurate I'm basing my opinion off of conversations with my daughter, conversations with/about daughters, my nieces,and friends discussing issues about their children.There's also some conversations with professionals (pediatrician, social workers) but no formal education or training like yourself. I'll keep an open mind that I could be wrong.

My intent isn’t to hijack the thread.

I don't think it's hijacking at all, bit of a rabbit hole but not a big deal. Children's education, rights, what's deemed acceptable to expose them to and so on is, however, a big political issue. Also seems a hot topic between left and right.

I never heard of conversion therapy until a few months ago. It sounded ghastly when I briefly read about it. The Email from O'Toole touched on some issues surrounding it.


I sort of though pro-life stuff was unfairly being blown out of proportion with conservative candidates. Seems like I was wrong and it's a major part of the candidates platforms, or at least a big issue they need to discuss.

I wish Canadians cared as much about integrity and ethics in their leaders as they do women having abortions.